IS AMWAY A SCAM?

1,020 thoughts on “IS AMWAY A SCAM?”

• Amway doesn’t work. The process is complex because there are two businesses running. Amway is the first business. It doesn;t work efficiently because the products are too expensive and the products are not glamorous. The secondary business is where upline trick or bait and switch distributors into thinking they have the ultimate secret to succeeding in Amway. So the new distributor’s, not wanting to miss out on this information, subscribe to the “Amway College” and end up spending hundred if not thousands of dollars learning Amway. Eventually, they self discover what they saw early on. The Amway products are too expensive and they are not glamorous. Having spent a lot of money on Amway products and then a lot more money on Amway College, they now quit. Most slink away into disgust and shame, not wanting to discuss Amway unless recruited again. Some become advocates against Amway. In either case, Amway and the Amway teachers are the only ones who made money, not the distributors.

• My daughter just recently became involved with Amway through a young man she’s dating. We keep telling her that it’s a waste of her time but she told us that she has researched it and really believes it is a great opportunity if a person is willing to put in a little extra effort. I wish I could get her to see that she’s going to regret being involved with Amway because I really hope it doesn’t take wasting a lot of money and time in order to learn this lesson.

• Sherry, my advice would be to simply ask your daughter to keep track of her monthly expenses versus her income. Businesses exist to make a profit. If she is unable to profit, she is basically a customer of Amway and a customer of the people who sell tapes, books and seminar tickets.

• Sherry,
  I have researched Amway too. My best fried worked hard for 7 years and retired at the age of 38 whereas I am still struggling to make ends meet at 50.

  Mr Stevens,
  Consider the following:
  1) This is a SECONDARY income. One need not stop working (till one has regular
  income).
  2) I know at least 5 couples who make 2680/- USD per month as secondary income.
  3) The products are pricey ? Did you bother to verify/check ? Here is the real world:
  Washing powder of 180 loads (ultra at Costco) costs USD 15/-
  But gives only 32 loads (my wife gave these figure).
  The Washing powder at Amway costs USD 18/- and gives 100 loads. Do your
  math.

  I was stupid….until now.

  The thing is that the products are “minitaturized” or “concentrated” for ease of shipping.

  Does anyone know the diffeence between EAU DE PARFUM and EAU DO COLOGNE ? which one is PRICEY ?

  Here is a question:

  Q – Why do you shop at Costco ?
  Me – To save money.

  Q – For how long ?
  Me – for about 5 years.

  Q – OK…so in which bank a/c have you saved the big bucks you saved ?
  Me – Hey….I dont get paid cash…..!!

  Q – See….this is the difference between Amway and others.

  Is it legit ?
  You bet!

  Why do people about Amway ?
  Sour grapes….In this business there are ONLY 2 things :

  1) Success.
  2) You Quit

  There is NO FAILURE.

  So stop cursing you guys….Sherry, your daughter is smart and if she works hard she will retire early…and will have hopefully better life than most of us.

  Cheers

• Shekhar:

  Thanks for providing examples of Amway doublespeak, non sequiters and general BS. How can you say this stuff with a straight face? Click on the Amway ads above to see the nonsense these guys put forth.

  – What bank do you deposit your savings from CostCo? I don’t have to, because the money I saved never LEFT my bank. What’s the point of paying more to get it back? I’d rather not pay it in the first place. Duh.

  “In this business there are ONLY 2 things :
  1) Success.
  2) You Quit”

  You forgot the third and fourth

  3) You turn into a sleazeball after getting brainwashed by bigger sleazeballs and think you can make big bucks exploiting your social and family relationships when in actuality you’re just going to annoy everybody and make them cringe every time you open your lying sleazeball mouth.

  4) You end up with a garage full of Amway detergent and shoe polish, no friends, and a big balance on your credit card.

  Folks, do yourself a favor, buy your detergent at Costco and keep your friends, friends and family family – not customers.

• Thanks “Not a Victim” – I genuinely appreciate your response.

  I do not wish to turn this into a debate. But here is my take:

  1. About savings in Costco – so you say it “stays in your bank”. Good.
  I do not know about you, I STILL do not have enough savings in my bank
  and am surviving from paycheck to paycheck.

  2. About your 3rd point:
  Sleazeball – Do you know even when Michael Jackson stages a show he
  HAS to “Promote” it. Is he a “Sleazeball” ?
  For NO APPARENT reason, people have shied away from Amway without
  understanding the model ? What testimony would you like ?
  That all top shots have aligned themseleves with Amway – Microsoft, IBN,
  Reebok, Dish, AT&T….list goes on.
  do you think you or I could approach Microsoft and say “Hey, I can do a superb
  website for you – why don’t you sell your products on my website ?” – and Microsoft
  will give you a Red Carpet ?
  What will it take for you to know the “Credibility” – you just do NOT WANT to
  understand – right ?

  3. About your 4th.
  I have not seen my wife happier in days – she has FOUND what she
  was seeking all these days…..the best of the best.
  My garage is neat and clean (yes).
  Lying – can you please tell me WHAT, WHERE do you find a lie in my statements ?
  Why should I lie ? I dont need to. Why do you PERCEIVE I am lying ? simple –
  because you do NOT know how this works or you REFUSE to even
  CONTEMPLATE it. Does this make me a LIER ? Appreciae if you can enlighten
  me.

  And my friends ? Take a look:
  My friend had a toothache…..I just gave him my toothpaste….he was so
  impressed (with a TOOTHPASTE for cryin’ out loud ?) that he searched
  the entire retail scene for thie “Glister” – he could not find it. He joined.

  Here is why I have joined:

  a. This opportunity came by to me for the 5th time. Previous 4 times I was
  cynical and REFUSED to entertain people who approached. Why ?
  Because I was BRAINWASHED by people like you who DID NOT KNOW
  the system.
  b. My best friend takes home 250K US DOLLARS a year now. He worked hard for 6
  years OUTSIDE his normal job.
  If I had that money today, I would retire.

  c. My friend, THERE IS NOTHING OUT THERE which can even SAY that it can
  give me a decent second income.
  d. What do I lose ? – NOTHING. ZILCH. NADA.
  If and when I say to myself that “this is not for me” I am MOST WELCOME to
  leave…..what WILL I HAVE lost ? nothing zilch nada. Because I GENUINELY
  love those products. I am already getting value for my money ?
  Does Amway pay ? you bet. My best friend is my testimony – you will need to find
  yours.

  Think. If you do NOT wish or REFUSE to entertain even a possibility of a seocnd job
  or a seocnd income….I am positive you are rich and not like us who NEED the money.

  In that case…please do not trash a system until you have seen/participated it.
  Do you want to see it for yourself or do PHD using a “Search Engine”.

  When people like yourself find their own TESTIMONY they will join.
  Like I did when my best friend retired at 38.

  Cheers

• Mr Stevens / “Not a Victim”

  ONE day when you find your best friend raking in millions you will have joined,
  at that time – just give a thought to what I been saying all along ……
  2 things:

  1. I need to inform you that I do NOT SELL retial.
  I only SELL a “concept”. If you like – fine – if you dont – well, good luck.

  2. Apologies for the typos this not being an exam :)

  Hope you become successful in whatever you do.
  All the best.

• Shekhar:

  There are lots of ways to mislead, and AMWAY has brought it to an art form.

  Dishonesty is ingrained in the Amway approach to communication. How do you lie? Let me point out a couple of examples.

  CostCo Ruse: “What bank account to you deposit your savings from CostCo?” That’s a sales trick to prompt a negative response 100% of the time, because even if someone DOES save money from CostCo they do it by not paying more in the first place.

  You will of course respond by going back to cost savings, etc., but the fact is Amway people cross the line from persuasion to trickery.

  Two options Ruse: “In this business there are ONLY 2 things: 1) Success. 2) You Quit” Again, another fast talking sales trick. Pretend there are only two options. What about losing money, time and friends and then failing? I’d say that should be listed as 3, and will be most people’s experience.

  Another ruse is exaggerating some tenuous affiliation with a big or respected company as being a wholehearted endorsement by that company.

  Another ruse is the “I’ve got a friend who’s a millionaire” or “I’ve got a friend who makes $250K a month from Amway.” Of course you do. And of course your friend’s name must remain confidential.

  Do they still teach that sometimes you might have to withhold the Amway name to get people to your presentations because of all those bad people telling lies. In essence, you have to lie to people for their own good?

  You wrote “…even when Michael Jackson stages a show he HAS to “Promote” it. Is he a “Sleazeball” ?”
  Is Michael Jackson a sleazeball? Are you serious? You use an accused child molester as your shining example? Hell yes, he’s a sleazeball. Trusting him to babysit your kids would be as foolish as lending an AMWAY salesman your ATM card!

• Hi Not a Victim,

  Well, again, appreciate your response.

  You missed my point completely. Michael Jackson was just an example. He is a sleazeball granted. But it was just an example. How about (I dont care too much about Rock Stars) e.g. Miley Cyrus or Boss Springstein…..can they stage a show without promotion ? does this make them sleazeballs ? Get my point now ?

  And, I keep repeating, “I dont sell a product” – is this not plain English ? So how can you keep calling “Amway Salesman” ?

  I dont know about others, MY OWN fast friend from School makes 250K USD. Which I know is a fact. I do not wish to impose this on you nor do I expect you to believe me. You have to find your OWN friend who you trust who has struck gold in Amway – it is only then that you will join. Hopefully by then it wont be too late for you.

  To your point, let us CONSIDER that all these are “ruses”. So why am I or people like me doing this ?

  1. We (my wife and I) love these products.
  2. No one including you can offer me an opportunity for a second income which I
  desparately need.
  3. I am living paycheck to paycheck. So what is WRONG in looking for an opportunity
  when is STARING at me ?

  What do I lose ?

  – SOME friends who have been influenced by people like you. But who cares for them?
  When I am in trouble will they come to help me ? Will they offer money to me ?
  Will/can I ask them for money ? So to hell with them.

  – I lose NOTHING ! Zilch.
  Is it very hard to believe ?

  Lastly, why am I “defending” this ? I am made that way. This is a personal bailout.
  No governmental doles. The money is there for the making. It would be best if this
  is shared and this business is the only one which celebrates sharing of the wealth.
  Tell me one which is similar ?

  Did I sell you something ? Did I ever insinuate that you should buy something from me ?

  So why do you guys keep saying what you do ?

  I am repeating myself – please DO NOT believe me. But then, to be fair, DO NOT also believe “heresay”. Also do not blame AMWAY until and unless you SEE it for yourself the business model. Not because your friend said it is bad or because a “Friend’s friend” curses it. If you to not like it – FINE…..and best of luck.

  I do what I believe in and what I like – you do the same.

  I am personally excited by this opportunity after studying the business model minutely. Does that make me a lier ? a sleazeball ? I have never told a lie. Never cheated anyone of a single dime.

  To round up – here is an example:

  I have my Amwaite friend (yes I call them friends) who, about 3 years back joined Amway. He approached his neighbors to join. ALL of them avoided him like plague. the neighbors were influenced by people like you – WITHOUT knowing fully about AMWAY. But my friend did not give up. Today he makes about 2680/- a month.

  Now, one of his old neighbors worked with me. He also avoided my Amway friend 3 years ago. This colleague of mine – has lost his job (which is unfortunate in itself). I approached him – he did not have any other opening – so he joined. In one of our meetings he recognized my Amway friend who he had avoided long time back. He felt bad about it – but it was already late – he had lost his job and has no other income. If he would have had this SECOND ADDITIONAL income – by now he would have atleast sat out the recession successfully.

  Cheers.

• Yeah, reading over your comment again this strikes me as really, really sad:

  “SOME friends who have been influenced by people like you. But who cares for them?
  When I am in trouble will they come to help me ? Will they offer money to me ?
  Will/can I ask them for money ? So to hell with them.”

  Guess you don’t believe in the saying “He who has friends is rich indeed.”

  I bet you will some day

• Shekhar:
  I take it by the way you talk about your friend that you haven’t made anything from this so far, correct?
  How much have you spent, including products you and your wife use.
  Be honest…

• Hi Not a Victim,

  Interesting responses. I like it. Pls bring on all your queries and I can assure you that I have LOGICAL explanation for those. Here are MY responses to the points you raise:

  1. Friends.
  I am turning 50 shortly. You do injustice to my intelligence when you quote “Who
  have friends are rich indeed”. You think in my 50 years I have not had the
  opportunity to UNDERSTAND this quote ?
  Did I say I dont care about friends ? You missed the point completely again…..
  You yourself have quoted it in your response. I meant “who cares of such friends
  that wont offer me a second income, who will help me when I need it the most ?
  Just for your information. I am blessed with some VERY CLOSE friends who do not
  hold AMWAY against me – they have love for me rather than what people have
  told them about AMWAY.

  Nevertheless, to your point…..I have made some terrific AMWAY friends…..they not
  only guide me in the business…but some are even helping out one of my friends
  who have lost his job….our network is looking to place him……is this not friendship ?
  Am I not rich friend-wise ? Does that make me “Friend-poor” ?

  2. Here is the info you demand – it is the truth in all honesty – but since you are not
  my friend (yet) you need not believe me…..you need to FIND a friend who is
  doing what I do and THEN it will sink in for you:

  I have just joined the business 2 weeks ago.
  I have spent USD 318/- towards registration.
  I have received products that is having my wife jumping with joy.

  3. I plan to spend USD 250/- per month on buying stuff from MY OWN business
  rather than spending it in Costco or Walmart.
  I also plan to buy some additional prouducts which I have not used before.
  One such thing is GLUCOSAMINE for my son who suffers from knee pains
  randomly. Check out info on this product. My Doctor friends are prescribing this
  to his patients!!!
  So now you will say “See you will be buying stufff you never used before”.
  Yes, but that is because I did not KNOW of this product. Instead I spent about
  USD 200/- last year on Doctor visits.

  – I have to work harder to overcome objections from cynics like you.
  – Once people are convinced that this is the ONLY business that have producted
  many many multi millionaires, they HAVE to join this business…there is no other
  option available out there…..(unless you win a lotto but you can calculate
  the permutation/combination of winning a lotto yourself).
  – I am getting to know more and more products that are useful. Instead of using
  one such product I was using a host of other ones – in a way I will be consolidating
  my use to limited products.

  Do you discern “dishonesty” in my response – now can YOU be honest as I have been.

  Can I ask you in all honesty:

  – WHAT exactly is that you do NOT like about AMWAY ?
  – What exactly do you KNOW about AMWAY ?
  – What is the EXACT reason that you take pity on folks like me (it is not warranted
  though – let me tell you firmly).

  May I expect a frank and an honest answer ?

  Cheers

• Hi Not a Victim,

  Do yourself a favour:
  Try to learn what Amway is all about (not from a search Engine – but from authentic sources). If you cant find them go to one of the meetings and learn the busines model. See how it works. Look at the products. Learn what is the exact difference between the products and what trash that is hawked in the market for the SAME price. See for yourself WHO is cheating WHO.

  Credibility:
  IBM, Microsoft, DELL, AT&T, Dish Network, Visa…..these are some of our partners.
  Will such companies parter with a Company without checking its market standing ?

  Why am I saying all this to you – once again – that is the way I am. One day you will see the light and understand if we ae wrong are is it you.

  Join my friend before it is too late. Unless you are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet.

• Hi – this is for someone who wrote in the blue box:
  My sis was in it once, wasted all her time and in the end made little or nothing………

  – Did you bother to find out what Amway is all about ?
  – I know of a mother who slogged for a few years sacrificing her time for her kids.
  Guess what ?
  Her business blossomed so much that she gave up her job (she was the Director
  of Nuclear Medicine in one of the leading hospitals).
  – On the Sweet 16 of her kids she gave them a BMW each.

  Do yourself a favour. Talk to your sister. Do NOT hold it against her that she is in her own business…Life is too short. Say I love you before it is too late.

  I should know. I lost my own brother in 1996.

  Cheers

• Shekhar:

  I was wrong about you. I see now that you are not a slick Amway salesman as I first thought, but are a new, excited recruit repeating the sales pitch and desperately wanting to believe.

  As for my credibility, at this point I am more financially successful with Amway than you are. You are at -$318 in sales and I have reached breakeven by having incurred $0 in expenses, $0 in lost labor hours. 0 lost friends and having achieved $0 in sales.

  Come to think of it, that makes me more financially successful at Amway than the vast majority of Amway salespeople… or any other MLM network marketing scheme. Plus, I have not alienated friends by turning my personal relationships into financial transactions. Whenever you think of family and friends as potential customers, there is going to be a problem. Unless you’re a girl scout.

  Shekhar, groups like Amway prey on good but desperate people who are eager to believe. Believe me, you will be better off getting a part time job at WalMart or 7-Eleven. At least you don’t risk losing money for your time and effort.

• Not a Victim, you might want to read Amway is not a scam but you can still be scammed. Your comments may be based in some legitimate experiences, but you’re very unfairly overgeneralizing.

• Thanks ibofightback. I read the article and now I understand much better.

  You are saying Amway is not a scam, it’s just a scammer’s tool. So if you you were scammed and you think it was Scamway, you are wrong because it was just dishonest people using a system and products that, for some reason, is well-suited for fraud.

  On a practical level: Who cares? Since there’s no way for someone invited to an Amway presentation or pitch to know whether this is one of them evil Scamwayers or the Dudley DoRight Amway professionals, they would be smart to avoid it altogether. Get a job at WalMart selling the same crap. You’ll get a paycheck and not have to go to nauseating rah-rah meetings.

  The article likens the “bad rap” given to Amway to sleazy used car salesmen. It says there’s nothing sinister about used cars, or the practice of selling them… there’s only a problem if the salespeople are unethical. We agree. So if there’s one used car lot with a widespread reputation for fraud, a used car lot with entire books written on their disreputable practices, one might do well to stay away… even if they’ve been fleecing customers for 50 years!

• I’d argue that Amway is not more “well suited for fraud” than any other business. We’ve seen investment bankers running ponzi schemes. Today in my corner of the world I’ve been reading of online travel agents selling fake plane tickets.

  If you find an Amway “car yard” well known for fraud, then by all means stay away. Indeed it might be worth noting that pretty much every single lawsuit involving Amway for the last 30 years, and all of the critical books, have involved the same group and it’s offshoots, so perhaps, at least in the past, that might be that car yard. What you seem to be advising is that if you find a dodgy car yard selling Toyota’s – don’t just avoid the car yard – avoid Toyota!

  But by all means, do your due diligence. Read the self-published critical books (they couldn’t get a real publisher) but also read the books by what most would consider more credible sources, like heads of prestigious business schools. Check with the BBB to find there’s very few complaints. Read recent FTC reports that state there’s so few complaints about members of the DSA that they’re not worth covering in a new “business opportunity rule”. See what organisation like the UN, UNICEF, and the Chamber of Commerce think about the company and products. Check out all the other independent Awards and Recognitions they’ve received around the world. Then decide whether that’s more important to you or you prefer to put more weight on the self-published writings of someone with an agenda, talking about their limited experience in one corner of the Amway world a decade or three ago.

  As always, your choice, but that choice says perhaps just as much, or more, about you than it does about the company.

• Thanks IBOFIGHTBACK. It is time we explained to misinformed people about their misconceptions. I have been having interesting debate with “Not a Victim”.

  I have some points for you “Not a Victim” – I was very busy and could not fine time to debate with you yesterday :)

• Hi Not a Victim,

  You have missed the point again. I have NOT asked you about “your credibility”.
  How can I – we are not even aquaintainces in the normal sense of the word.

  What I said was “what would it take for people like you to believe in credibility in Amway” – therefore I quoted big guns like Microsoft, IBM etc supporting Amway. My question to you was: Do you now believe that Amway is credible ?

  I would not go so far as questioning your intelligence like you did mine earlier (I am loving this healthy debate and one day you will understand the difference I am trying to make). But HOW on earth can you say that you are more successful with Amway with 0 investiment,0 in everyghing and on top of that you are advising me to take a second job at Walmart or 7Eleven !!! How about the following:
  – 0 chance of retiring early.
  – 0 chance of success.
  – 100 % spending money on lousy products.
  – 100 % belief that stuff like colgate was produced before start of mankind.
  – 100% mentality of an employee and NOT an employer. See this: when you visit
  a restaurant they say “employees must wash their hands before leaving the
  restroom” – they NEVER say “Employers must wash their hands….”. :):):):)

  I am impressed by the length you people will go to trash Amway WITHOUT understanding anything.

  THIS IS PRECISELY the thing I wish to avoid in my life and THAT is the reason I want my OWN business. You guys out there are PROGRAMMED by the elders and friends “not to have your business” but to WORK for someone.

  By the way “Not a Victim” – you have NOT answered my questions. I did answer yours did’nt I. So now are we being fair? Pls tell me in all honesty like I did.

  Unless you answer the 3 basic Questions I asked about Amway, I think it will not be futile to carry on this debate. If you do – we have a deal.

  Cheers

• 
  

• Shekhar:
  You have been brainwashed. I suggest you start your deprogramming by reading “The Ten Big Lies of MLM” at the link below. Here’s an interesting fact:

  “For almost everyone who invests MLM turns out to be a losing financial proposition. This is not an opinion, but a historical fact. Consider some notable examples from among the largest MLMs.

  “In the largest of all MLMs, Amway, only 1/2 of one percent of all distributors make it to the basic level of “direct” distributor, and the average income of all Amway distributors is about $40 a month. That is gross income before taxes and expenses. When costs are factored, it is obvious that nearly all suffer a loss. Making it to “direct”, however, is not a ticket to profitability, but to greater losses. When the Wisconsin Attorney General filed charges against Amway, tax returns from all distributors in the state revealed an average net loss of $918 for that state’s “direct” distributors.”

  http://www.falseprofits.com/MLM%20Lies.html

  With Amway, you have:
  – 0 chance of retiring early.
  – 0 chance of success.
  – 100 % spending money on lousy products.
  – 100 % belief that your Amway “friends” are interested in anything other than picking your pocket.
  – 100% mentality that you can get rich having others sell the same stuff WalMart sells cheaper, more efficiently and without annoying those around you.

  It’s a pipe dream, a scam that uses cult techniques. Run, Shekhar, run like the wind while you still can!!!!

• Ahhh, joy. Another person who claims to provide evidence that Amway is a scam by pointing out that only folk who work hard make money!

  Did you join Amway thinking it was some get rich quick pyramid scam and then get disappointed and disillusioned when it took actual months and years of hard work to make good money?

  Read Amway Success: What are your odds? for a proper analysis.

• ibofightback:
  Please give me back the brain cells I sacrificed trying to decipher that convoluted and irrelevant post.. The Professor made a stupid analogy and you made an even stupider response.
  Is that the Amway strategy of baffling with b*llsh*t? Or do you just think you sound intelligent writing stuff so boring it will never be read?
  Sorry, but I think the http://www.falseprofits.com/MLM%20Lies.html article is a little clearer and is backed up with facts.
  The Wisconsin Attorney General found that Amway distributors lost money across the board, and those who advanced to “direct” level got to lose even more!
  Some wealth-building system… Impressive

• Have you read the Wisconsin case? I have. It’s from more than THIRTY YEARS AGO! They took folk who once, in just one month, did enough volume to become called a direct. It was common then for folk to do a big “push” selling cookware or some such to qualify, then the volume disappeared. To reach that level now requires 6 months – ie a much more stable business – AND Amway has more than doubled the bonuses for this level.

  Now, what were those 192 directs doing? According to the WAG case, 139 of them had annual adjusted gross incomes in excess of $12,000 and the average for *all* Wisconsin directs was . That’s over $40,000 in today’s dollars. So where did the “loss” FitzPatrick reports come from?

  First, business expense deductions. Any smart business owner goes out of their way to minimize their taxable income as much as legally possible. Indeed, some go too far, and the IRS has in the past prosecuted Amway distributors for claiming too many expenses and losses when they didn’t really have them, or weren’t actually running a business anymore – just claiming the deductions! Second was he went and added back in all of those 53 “directs” earning less than $12,000. I’d venture to suggest many of them had quite low incomes, for reasons such as I outlined above. Guess what that does to your averages?

  Yup, more of those folk not working, and not earning an income, and you’d have us believe they’d been “scammed”? People who worked hard made money, and people who didn’t didn’t, and this is a scam? Pleeeasssee…

  As for Mr FitzPatrick himself, I could write all day about his wacky analysis (and you accuse ME of b*llsh*t?), but instead I’ll recommend court-certified MLM expert Len Clement’s excellent expose – Anti-MLM Zealots Part II – Robert FitzPatrick. Interestingly, in a case a couple of years ago against Quixtar in California (Quixtar won), the plaintiffs tried to call FitzPatrick as an expert. The judge pretty much laughed it out of the court and wouldn’t allow him.

• Hi “Not a Victim”,

  Thanks for your advice. Sorry to inform you, I have not been brainwashed as you presume.

  Why should I run ? I have found my friend whom I can trust when he says he earned a big bonus. I have gone out of the way to join. This is the difference.

  Nevertheless, you have STILL not answered my questions.

  Cheers

• ibofightback,

  pls email me.

  thanks/Shekhar

• Shekhar, I would if I had your email :) Leave me a comment on The Truth About Amway or Amway Talk

• Shekhar:
  I’m not sure which 3 questions you are talking about. You’ve said some bizarre things and I’m kind of confused. Let me know if these are not the correct questions.

  Do I believe “colgate was produced before start of mankind?”
  No I don’t.

  Do I think it’s unfair that restaurant signs say “employees must wash their hands before leaving the restroom” – and NEVER say “Employers must wash their hands…
  No, I don’t think I care.

  Who’s more successful with Amway, someone who’s down $318 or someone who’s down $0.
  At this point, neither. However, only one may end up losing money.

• ibofightback:
  Since you seem to be so up on all the latest statistical data, I’m sure you can tell us what the average income of Amway distributors at the different levels… or do we just have to be impressed that Shekhar has a “friend” who knows someone who makes $250K.
  If you could answer the question without linking to one of your incomprehensible and self-important posts it would be much appreciated:)

• Slightly out of date data as Amway has increased the bonuses significantly, however average income stats from 2006 in the United States were –

  Q-12 Platinum $47,472.
  Emerald $72,241
  Diamond $146,995

  In 2000 average incomes for other levels of achievement were also reported –

  Platinum $27,064
  Founders Platinum$31,047
  Q12 Award $39,846
  Emerald $64,639
  Founders Emerald $84,577
  Diamond $139,298
  Founders Diamond $228,091
  Exec. Diamond and Above $495,152
  Founders Exec. and Above $1,303,190

  You can see explanations of all the “titles” on Amway Wiki

  Sorry you find my step by step with explanation posts incomprehensible. Feel free to ask for clarifications for the parts you don’t understand.

  I must say I find it amazing you can come on a public forum and spout all this criticism and haven’t even done the smallest piece of research, such as reading http://www.thisbiznow.com for statistics.

• Note: as you can see by comparing the same levels, incomes went up quite a bit from 2000 to 2007. This is also income from just one country. Most Diamond and above (and many below) end up developing Amway businesses in multiple countries. There are folk who qualify Diamond and higher in more than a dozen countries and get those kind of incomes in all of them.

• ibofightback:

  Interesting that you list incomes ranging from $47,000 to $146,000, and even $1,000,000+ per year at the top level, yet leave out the fact that even your questionable source says “The Average Monthly Gross Income for ‘Active’ IBOs was $115”

  Hmmm… How many “Founders Exec. and Above” earning $1,303,190 exist?
  How many active IBOs are there to bring the “average” down to a meager $1380 gross income… which I assume is before taxes and doesn’t include overhead and necessary expenses such as travel, meetings, fees, books, tapes and other crap needed to maintain the “millionaire mindset” and PMA.

  The fact that you toss out the rare, highest end numbers (if they even are true) rather than the income of the vast majority of those involved is why Amway gets such a bad rap. Nothing is straightforward with you guys. It’s like you’re allergic to honesty.

  I guess it works when you’re preaching to your lobotomized choir, and to people so desperate to believe like poor Shekhar here. But it’s very transparent and annoying to those who haven’t drank your koolaid.

• Only one question needs to be asked – did you read the definition used to define “active” for the purposes of the average income?

• I knew something productive would come of this discussion. I’ve invented a new saying: “Like trying to get a straight answer from an Amway salesman.”

  Yes, I read it. I also read the definition of “gross income.” and I am already familiar with the term “average.”

  The reason people hate you guys is not because of an unfair rap on the Internet, it’s because you can never just address an issue straightforwardly, honestly and in a non-annoying fashion. That’s also why you don’t get invited to more parties.

  The question is simply what, on average, happens to people like our friend Shekhar when they join up. On average, how much do they spend, how much to they earn in year one, year two, etc. How many stick with it to the point of recouping their investment.

  It’s a pretty simple concept (which probably makes it instantly unacceptable). No need to parade the plutonium level members $1,000,000 checks… I’d be interested to see the actual results of 1000 or so Shekhars a couple years down the road.

  Of course, if this information is not available I can certainly understand. The state lotteries and casinos don’t advertise the thousands who go broke and never win either.

• So you read it and don’t have a problem with the income statistics? Don’t you think $1380 is pretty good income for asking your brother, once, if he wants to buy an XS energy drink (and he says no) – don’t you think that’s a pretty good income? What would the hourly rate be? $1380 for about 10 secs – nearly half a million dollars an hour! Pretty good money, no? Or how about you decide to buy some prestige cosmetics for your wife’s birthday, and it get’s you a 3% rebate from Amway. Presto – $1380!!

  What a great deal!

  That’s not the way it works though is it? The first guy probably made $0. The second maybe got ten or twenty bucks back in a rebate. But they’re all included in those statistics!

  And you think that’s bad?

  Here’s the reality. Most people who register with Amway never doing a single thing after registering, they don’t even order any products. 7 out of 10 don’t renew their business after a year. No more than 20% ever attend any seminars or buy any training or marketing material. No more than 5% ever do the recommended work for even one month. No more than 1% ever do the recommended work for at least 6 months, the minimum considered necessary to build a profitable business.

  Heck, another MLm, Shaklee, told the FTC that 85% of the people who register with them do so purely to get the products cheaper. Amway doesn’t ask folk that, but it’s probably not so different. If they join, and successfully order a product at member pricing, they’ve succeeded haven’t they? Yet it would appear you consider them “Amway failures”.

  So, short answer is less than 1% go on to make any decent income, and that’s entirely fair and equitable because less than 1% put in the consistent work over time necessary.

  As a UK judge put it recently,it’s an opportunity, not a guarantee. It’s low cost, so pretty much anyone can give it a go and decide if it’s for them or not. If they decide it’s not, and they don’t think they got their money’s worth with what they have spent, then they can get refunds, no questions asked.

  How more fair can you get?

• “…short answer is less than 1% go on to make any decent income…”
  Thank you.
  That wasn’t so hard, was it?

• You already knew that, but you’d coated it in so much BS as to be almost dishonest. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

  Now let’s do the flipside of what it means –

  close to 100% of folk who do what is recommended consistently for 1-2years earn $47,000k/yr and higher.

  Not bad money for a part-time business that can be started for peanuts

• Not a Victim,

  So you missed my 3 simple questions which I had asked of you on March 7th.
  I repeat them again – copied from above:

  Do you discern “dishonesty” in my response – now can YOU be honest as I have been.

  QUOTE
  Can I ask you in all honesty:

  – WHAT exactly is that you do NOT like about AMWAY ?
  – What exactly do you KNOW about AMWAY ?
  – What is the EXACT reason that you take pity on folks like me (it is not warranted
  though – let me tell you firmly).

  May I expect a frank and an honest answer ?
  UNQUOTE.

  Cheers

• I attended my first Amway presentation was decades ago when I was in high school. My girlfriend was recruited at her retail job by a creepy couple who wrung my shirttale in water to show how much detergent was in the material, dipped my hand in shoe polish, etc. They were deceptive, annoying and had a cultlike mentality. Even back then they wouldn’t disclose that the “opportunity” was Amway ahead of time. My girlfriend got involved for a short time, invested some, became annoying for a while then quit.
  Over the years, I saw literally dozens go through the same process… In the beginning they get sucked in to the entrepreneurial Amway dream (illusion) and are crazy excited with all the possibilities. They buy a bunch of crap, books, tapes, go to meetings, and learn to doubletalk around the truth. Soon they are justifying things, like not telling you the name to get you to presentations, and general sneakiness. They are no longer fun to be around, because they see personal relationships as financial opportunities. Once they’ve used up their initial friend-imposition sales, one day they realize that they’re not going to make any money at this, that the retail world is fulfilling that role just fine without them. Eventually, everyone I’ve ever encountered snaps out, but has lost money and damaged their relationships and reputations. They feel like schmucks and deservedly so.
  So where does all the money come that you see in those big checks at Amway sales meetings? I suspect that it’s from all those schmucks who get sucked into the cult dream and who buy crap and sell to friends til they lose them and quit in embarrassment. 99.6% says that will happen to you too Shekhar.
  Sorry, that’s not a legitimate business model.
  Of course, that’s my opinion from being annoyed by decades of Amway wannabe dreamers. And it’s shared by many many others.

• Not a Victim:

  So you answered the first question – but not the second and the third.

  As for your response. Agreed, some people do not upfront say this is Amway. I for one, do just that with all. If they are interested to at least know – I will explain – if not – then I dont waste my time and theirs.

  Now ask yourself. Why do some people do this ? It is because there are people like you who have spoilt this good company’s name. I was exactly like you – WITHOUT knowing how this works, I kept myself away from this! But then I found my childhood friend who retired 8 years ago – we recently met and got talking – I am still working from paycheck to paycheck. Whereas he travels the world and has a high-flying lifestyle. Does this answer your question “where does all the money come that you see in those big checks at Amway sales meetings ?”.

  And, NO, I DO NOT see those checks in the meetings. There are people like me who have found a source they can trust. So we have gone OUT OF THE WAY to join Amway – and not the other way round. So all I need to do is to locate people like me.

  Let me tell you some more (my question: what you know about Amway). What you have said is what all snobbish (Yes, I was one too till now) people are saying “Amway is no good” WITHOUT FINDING out how and why it works.

  Ask yourself: Are you interested an a PLAN-B – i.e. an additional income i.e. IN ADDITION to what you must be earning thru your normal 9-5 job (of course, you need not tell me that you land up working 8 till 8 like me and get paid only 40 hrs a week).

  If you are NOT interested in this income, then lets forget everything we have been discussing. If you are in fact interested, then say so and I can take the trouble to explain to you how and why it works.

  Otherwise I will be breaking my head against a wall and so will you. If you are interested, if not from us, GO FIND OUT what is Amway and how it works. If not, at least DO NOT curse it just because “your friend is cursing it”.

  People give up Amway before they cut even – because they think this is a “Get rich quick” scheme. They do not understand the hard work involved and neither they have the patience. THESE PEOPLE have spoilt Amway name. So be it. People like me want to be AS FAR AWAY as possible from such people. There are 280 million out there – if I find just 20-50 people like me – I am fine. THIS IS THE HARD WORK – find out the like minded people.

  Do you think all the top brands including Microsoft/IBM/Dell are nuts to partner with Amway ?

  My son owns a Dell computer – Dell is Amway partner now – and I have my own business – my own “Shop” if you will – so the next time I need to buy Dell stuff, I will buy from “my own shop” :):):)

  Cheers

• Not a Victim,

  By the way. Did you notice Amway DOES NOT solicit people to “click here” to find out more or “submit your name/email/phone number” to find out “more”.

  People, can you not see thru this “Age old tricks” and are you not intelligent enough to understand which one is genuine ?

  I just checked a few links on this page and am quite angry at people being “NAIVE” on one end and sending in their name/phone number etc to “Find out more” froma “Get rich quick” scheme on one hand and “KNOW ALL” and cursing Amway on the other.

  Come on guys!! You want to earn big bucks in a month ? Don’t even come near AMWAY. Thank God it is not for people like you!!!

  Cheers

• Hi – Just to let you know my good friend and neighbor who touted NuSkin recently just got out of the business – I say she was in it for six months with her hubby. We are such good friends that I forgave her for dragging me into this event that turned out to be one of those scam seminars. I even bought products from her because I felt sorry for her. Those products are still sitting under my bed unused. They were very expensive. Basically, do the math. You only make the money if you recruit enough people who each recruit others on their own and every member stuck with his/her membership. As far as my friend was concerned, people started making U-turns when they saw her because nobody wanted to listen to the other products that NuSkin has, etc. I avoided her like the plague after a while. She became a different person and is constantly defending NuSkin even though it’s sucking out her savings. She eventually got out of the business after a few months. Her house is on sale right now. I think NuSkin was her attempt to catch up on her bills but that failed miserably for her.

  Beware of trying to push these items off to coworkers too. It can cost you your day-time job (full-time job is important in that you get benefits and a real paycheck without having to buy their products over and over). With layoffs coming through the pipeline, the annoying NuSkin/Amway person can be the next in line to get canned – companies can lay off people with very little reason.

  I agree with “Not a Victim” in that you cannot make money at the expense of family and friends and consider them not worthy of your friendship simply because they can’t afford to buy from you anymore. When you push your friends and family to buy from you, they no longer want to hang out with you because they think you’re only into them for the money they can give you.

  I personally like Costco in that I can buy the stuff and use them and not feel like I have to buy more. I purchase items to use them and not to resell them to family and friends and make more money off them. I also give these products away to family and friends at no charge for them to try and it doesn’t matter to me how much it’s costing me to give these items for free. If they like it, they can go to Costco to buy these very same items and they thank me. I’m always glad to be able to help them. That’s what friends and family is all about. I don’t ever plan on making a dime off them. I don’t have any ulterior motives when I have others try my products.

  The business model for MLM’s don’t work. I went to the seminar that said if I recruit 10 people and each of those 10 people recruit 10 people who recruit 10 more on their own and everybody stays recruited forever – then I will be rich. Well, the probability of that happening is very slim.

  Now, I steer away from MLM recruiters. You can bet if anybody at work tries to recruit me, I will straighten that person out big time.

  I think MLM works for foreign people who can’t find good opportunities in this country and are desperate for the money. This is based on my personal observation. A lot of people doing this type of work are Chinese and Filipinos because their family and friends are very tightly knitted and they tend to trust each other. These are very trusting and good people who are easily misled. That’s why they are ideal preys for MLM.

  If you were to go to an MLM seminar and I’ve been to quite a few in college and one recently (I was dragged there under false pretenses). Most of the people attending are minorities with broken English or people who lack a 4-yr college degree. Maybe people with 4-yr degrees and full-time careers are too busy? Based on my experience, it doesn’t work unless you have a pushy personality and your customers are people who are afraid to offend you or else you have something on them.

  These are just my thoughts. If AMWAY/NuSkin offers such great products, then maybe they should just open up stores in malls and sell them off the shelves instead of recruiting people and charging them membership fees. These wonderful products should speak for themselves – right?

  If I ever make a lot of money on an opportunity, I would just keep it to myself and not share. Why would I want to create so much competition in the same market space and dilute my customer space – right? I’ll just keep selling my “great products” and never recruit anybody. But then the corporate office would not earn any membership fees. But then if the products are so great and should sell like hot cakes, why bother with membership fees?

• I loved the “I have plenty of AMWAY friends” comment !!!

  Sounds eerily like “I have plenty of SCIENTOLOGY friends”

• ‘beware of mlm” (wow, you ARE inventive):

  YOu must take pity on yourself at your narrow understanding (did you say you were a college grad ?) – do I SOUND like a person with broken English and without a collge degree ? (never mind my 25 year of executive experience)…. ?

  You menioned “NuSkin” right ? – do you know these are all spin offs of Amway ? Amway is celebrating 50 years. Brands like Barnes and Noble, IBM, Microsoft, Shop.com, Office Depot, all Cell Companies etc.etc…..have all partnered with Amway…..you need not ask WHY – because it won’t make a difference to you…..because you are a college grad…..and all Amway franchises who I know (IT Directors, high-flying consultants, Doctors are all no match to you…..of course).

  You write, quote “The business model for MLM’s don’t work. I went to the seminar that said if I recruit 10 people and each of those 10 people recruit 10 people who recruit 10 more on their own and everybody stays recruited forever – then I will be rich” unquote.

  If THIS is your understanding then it is GOOD that you are not a part of Amway….you are welcome to:
  – Shop at Costco for the rest of your lift.
  – Go to work Monday to Friday for someone else till you are 65.
  – Work at Walmart after 65 (unless you win a lotto).
  – Make Waltons the billionaires of the world.
  – Advertise for someone else (say to your friend “Costco is a good place to shop”.
  – Continue being friends with your “Friends” – no you cannot leave them, no.
  – Never belive Amway is a 50 Billion company.

  PLEASE NEVER CONSIDER:
  – To EVEN try for a plan B (aside from your job).
  – Work outside or office hours for YOUR OWN.
  – To have a “Decent” life.

  Why do:
  – You badmouth Amway without KNOWING how it works, without FINDING OUT
  how it works…..or NOT UNDERSTANDING how it works……

  and I:
  – Waste my time on the likes of you….

  Sorrym I do not mean it personally to you…..it is just “YOU”…….who make our life challenging…….:)

  Cheers/Shekhar

• Hey Shekhar, I’m not going to pity you, if you have belief in your ability to make it work and have that much pride in it, then I wish you the best. Nobody here wishes you harm, in fact this website is here fore the sake of preventing it. Whether people start a franchise or join a MLM, the reason they do it is for the exact same reasons you say: be your own boss, supplement your income, opportunities for explosive growth. And I can understand that at the age of 50, you may want to try something new, or just want a chance at that dream you saw your friend living. But I think a lot of the people who post here have failed not because they didn’t try hard enough, but because all the promises they were told never happened, and the longer they stayed, they only lost more money. But like you said, as a way of supplementing income it may have promise, but as a main source of income there is just too much uncertainty to raise a family that way, and if you have any children it is not right by them. You can’t feed your family with a promise of potential gain, you need to be making real, genuine money for that.

  And even though Amway offers everyone the equal opportunity of success, not everyone starts out at the same point, right? Some people are naturally sellers and charismatic, others have a strong family and friend connections who will buy from them, but for many people they will just hit dead ends. Is putting my money into Amway more profitable then putting it into a slot machine? Also, Amway sells things that people don’t need, you have to persuade them to spend more on basic necessities especially in this bad economy. If you are already in the paycheck to paycheck position, would you buy things based on how well they work or how cheap they are (also, I’ve used Costco detergent, it works just as well as Tide, and I get roughly the number of loads as written on the box).But I’ll believe you that yours is better.

  You say your wife loves these products… Then what is the purpose of both of you joining? She already has access to the products you want for a good price, and don’t you guys have access to the same people to sell to? I don’t understand the basic premise, I think. Is Amway’s purpose to sell these products to it’s members so they can resell to others, or is it to get other people to join by paying a fee so that they can get Amway products at a lower price? What is your business plan to attract people to their products? Door to door, or just between friends and family? How do you constantly meet new people? Your selling ability is basically dependant on how much people trust you, right? And then to recruit them also is based on your ability to show the promise of the Amway idea. Perhaps your friend made all his actual money by convincing people he already had made a lot of money, so they signed up too as his referrals, right? Isn’t it possible he is taking advantage of you too?

  But besides all that, I think Amway’s angle is that they want to make the buyer feel they are buying something unique. Their products contain all kinds of strange herbs, or “cutting edge” chemicals, to differentiate them, and people are continually fascinated with this stuff. Look at the shamwow, for example. It is old technology, passed of as something new and amazing, and people buy into it. That’s why I will agree there is a market, and I also agree that Asian/Hispanic minorities do make a great target for these things since they are more readily believing in herbal/miraculous things. If you can find a group like that with disposable income, you might be successful. But just because there’s a market out there, doesn’t mean success. Like any selling job, you can only bring the horse to the water.

  Also, it seems all the ties of IBM, Dell, Microsoft, are all client-based, as in they were hired to do work for Amway. What amway does has no bearing in the technical markets they are involved in, but those companies most likely handle their internal infrastructure. They are paid to do so, it’s not because they believe in Amway. You shouldn’t use that as a line.

• Hi “Good Luck, man”

  I liked your post. Will respond back when I can find some time…….
  I am overwhelmed by the way people are badmouthing Amway……….without UNDERSTANDING it…..

  But one thing quickly…..You can find Microsoft, IBM Dell products on Amway…..

  Cheers/Shekhar

• IBM, Microsoft, etc – they all did work for Amway. Their credibility has nothing to do with Amway. Same with partner stores. Basically, they have Amway’s sales force sell stuff for them. They do not sell Amway goods.

  Nearly all of those who get involved in Amway will realize a net loss. Those who get hooked on the system may realize massive losses. The entire system is a leach that attaches itself onto the Amway business and sucks the IBOs dry. If you don’t believe me, just do the math. Most IBOs are at 100 PV where they make $9 a mont or 300 PV where they make $36 a month.

  The system along with other fees cost at least $100 a month on average, and that is the lower end of the estimates.

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• I DON’T UNDERSTAND THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO SAY THAT AMWAY IS A “SCAM”. PEOPLE HAVE NEVER ACHIEVED ANYTHING IN THEIR LIVES AND OBVIOUSLY DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WITH THIS BUSINESS, THINKING THAT BY SIGNING, MONEY WILL START POURING INTO THEIR ACCOUNT. YOU FAILURES ARE FINDING AN EXCUSE AND YOU KNOW IT!!! I DON’T CARE IF IT TAKES ME 10 YEARS TO HAVE TREMENDOUS INCOME. BUT I WILL NOT GO TO WORK AS YOU ARE, SO CALLED SLAVES!!! YOU GOTTA THINK OUTSIDE OF YOUR BOX AND YOUR STUPID FRIENDS WHO ARE PULLING YOU DOWN TO THEIR CRAP NEST.
  YOU KNOW THAT BY GOING TO WORK, YOU ARE FULFILLING SOMEBODY ELSES DREAM AND GOALS??? OH YOU HAVE ONE TOO? REALLY? –YOU PROBABLY FOUND ONE THAT WOULD ACCOMMODATE WITH THE INCOME YOU ARE GETTING. YOUR DREAMS MUST BE SO BIG THAT FACTS WILL NOT COUNT…