IS AMWAY A SCAM?
January 6, 2009
FranchisePick.Com asks: Have you ever had a good friend or close relative join AMWAY (Mary Kay, Herbalife, Quixtar, Meleleuca, Shaklee, USANA, nuskin, or other mlm, multilevel or network marketing scheme) and suddenly become the annoying sales zombie from hell?
The question came from a comment left on the post IS AMWAY A GREAT BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY? thirstyfox claims that Amway/Quixtar is a cultlike scam that makes everyone annoyed with her deluded sister:
My sis was in it once, wasted all her time and in the end made little or nothing.
She got back into it recently against everyones advice. It’s like a cult that turns you against your family so you don’t listen to them. Now she has no time for family, just scamming strangers and wasting her time away with unfullfilled dreams.
The constant meetings are to keep you brainwashed. It’s all a scam and she knows it herself now as she tries to get others in “under her.” Hard to see her as a Christian anymore when she does this, and it’s sad to see all the time she loses when she could be raising her kids.
I’ll never understand how she could be so stupid. I asked her why she got in it last time and she said of course money. Then I asked her what she got out of it and she replied defensivly “I met a lot of very interesting people!” I think that about says it all and if it didn’t work for my sis it won’t work for anyone.
All the BS they tell you about how well this that and the other person did or is doing is all lies so they can get your money. 98% of all Quixtar products are sold ONLY to stupid Quixtar members themselves, yet they go around saying they own a business???
Don’t give them a second of your time.
What do you think? Does Multi-level “Network” Marketing consists of stupid, annoying members selling worthless stuff to other stupid, annoying members? Share your MLM story below.
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Amway doesn’t work. The process is complex because there are two businesses running. Amway is the first business. It doesn;t work efficiently because the products are too expensive and the products are not glamorous. The secondary business is where upline trick or bait and switch distributors into thinking they have the ultimate secret to succeeding in Amway. So the new distributor’s, not wanting to miss out on this information, subscribe to the “Amway College” and end up spending hundred if not thousands of dollars learning Amway. Eventually, they self discover what they saw early on. The Amway products are too expensive and they are not glamorous. Having spent a lot of money on Amway products and then a lot more money on Amway College, they now quit. Most slink away into disgust and shame, not wanting to discuss Amway unless recruited again. Some become advocates against Amway. In either case, Amway and the Amway teachers are the only ones who made money, not the distributors.
My daughter just recently became involved with Amway through a young man she’s dating. We keep telling her that it’s a waste of her time but she told us that she has researched it and really believes it is a great opportunity if a person is willing to put in a little extra effort. I wish I could get her to see that she’s going to regret being involved with Amway because I really hope it doesn’t take wasting a lot of money and time in order to learn this lesson.
Sherry, my advice would be to simply ask your daughter to keep track of her monthly expenses versus her income. Businesses exist to make a profit. If she is unable to profit, she is basically a customer of Amway and a customer of the people who sell tapes, books and seminar tickets.
Sherry,
I have researched Amway too. My best fried worked hard for 7 years and retired at the age of 38 whereas I am still struggling to make ends meet at 50.
Mr Stevens,
Consider the following:
1) This is a SECONDARY income. One need not stop working (till one has regular
income).
2) I know at least 5 couples who make 2680/- USD per month as secondary income.
3) The products are pricey ? Did you bother to verify/check ? Here is the real world:
Washing powder of 180 loads (ultra at Costco) costs USD 15/-
But gives only 32 loads (my wife gave these figure).
The Washing powder at Amway costs USD 18/- and gives 100 loads. Do your
math.
I was stupid….until now.
The thing is that the products are “minitaturized” or “concentrated” for ease of shipping.
Does anyone know the diffeence between EAU DE PARFUM and EAU DO COLOGNE ? which one is PRICEY ?
Here is a question:
Q – Why do you shop at Costco ?
Me – To save money.
Q – For how long ?
Me – for about 5 years.
Q – OK…so in which bank a/c have you saved the big bucks you saved ?
Me – Hey….I dont get paid cash…..!!
Q – See….this is the difference between Amway and others.
Is it legit ?
You bet!
Why do people about Amway ?
Sour grapes….In this business there are ONLY 2 things :
1) Success.
2) You Quit
There is NO FAILURE.
So stop cursing you guys….Sherry, your daughter is smart and if she works hard she will retire early…and will have hopefully better life than most of us.
Cheers
Shekhar:
Thanks for providing examples of Amway doublespeak, non sequiters and general BS. How can you say this stuff with a straight face? Click on the Amway ads above to see the nonsense these guys put forth.
- What bank do you deposit your savings from CostCo? I don’t have to, because the money I saved never LEFT my bank. What’s the point of paying more to get it back? I’d rather not pay it in the first place. Duh.
“In this business there are ONLY 2 things :
1) Success.
2) You Quit”
You forgot the third and fourth
3) You turn into a sleazeball after getting brainwashed by bigger sleazeballs and think you can make big bucks exploiting your social and family relationships when in actuality you’re just going to annoy everybody and make them cringe every time you open your lying sleazeball mouth.
4) You end up with a garage full of Amway detergent and shoe polish, no friends, and a big balance on your credit card.
Folks, do yourself a favor, buy your detergent at Costco and keep your friends, friends and family family – not customers.
Thanks “Not a Victim” – I genuinely appreciate your response.
I do not wish to turn this into a debate. But here is my take:
1. About savings in Costco – so you say it “stays in your bank”. Good.
I do not know about you, I STILL do not have enough savings in my bank
and am surviving from paycheck to paycheck.
2. About your 3rd point:
Sleazeball – Do you know even when Michael Jackson stages a show he
HAS to “Promote” it. Is he a “Sleazeball” ?
For NO APPARENT reason, people have shied away from Amway without
understanding the model ? What testimony would you like ?
That all top shots have aligned themseleves with Amway – Microsoft, IBN,
Reebok, Dish, AT&T….list goes on.
do you think you or I could approach Microsoft and say “Hey, I can do a superb
website for you – why don’t you sell your products on my website ?” – and Microsoft
will give you a Red Carpet ?
What will it take for you to know the “Credibility” – you just do NOT WANT to
understand – right ?
3. About your 4th.
I have not seen my wife happier in days – she has FOUND what she
was seeking all these days…..the best of the best.
My garage is neat and clean (yes).
Lying – can you please tell me WHAT, WHERE do you find a lie in my statements ?
Why should I lie ? I dont need to. Why do you PERCEIVE I am lying ? simple -
because you do NOT know how this works or you REFUSE to even
CONTEMPLATE it. Does this make me a LIER ? Appreciae if you can enlighten
me.
And my friends ? Take a look:
My friend had a toothache…..I just gave him my toothpaste….he was so
impressed (with a TOOTHPASTE for cryin’ out loud ?) that he searched
the entire retail scene for thie “Glister” – he could not find it. He joined.
Here is why I have joined:
a. This opportunity came by to me for the 5th time. Previous 4 times I was
cynical and REFUSED to entertain people who approached. Why ?
Because I was BRAINWASHED by people like you who DID NOT KNOW
the system.
b. My best friend takes home 250K US DOLLARS a year now. He worked hard for 6
years OUTSIDE his normal job.
If I had that money today, I would retire.
c. My friend, THERE IS NOTHING OUT THERE which can even SAY that it can
give me a decent second income.
d. What do I lose ? – NOTHING. ZILCH. NADA.
If and when I say to myself that “this is not for me” I am MOST WELCOME to
leave…..what WILL I HAVE lost ? nothing zilch nada. Because I GENUINELY
love those products. I am already getting value for my money ?
Does Amway pay ? you bet. My best friend is my testimony – you will need to find
yours.
Think. If you do NOT wish or REFUSE to entertain even a possibility of a seocnd job
or a seocnd income….I am positive you are rich and not like us who NEED the money.
In that case…please do not trash a system until you have seen/participated it.
Do you want to see it for yourself or do PHD using a “Search Engine”.
When people like yourself find their own TESTIMONY they will join.
Like I did when my best friend retired at 38.
Cheers
Mr Stevens / “Not a Victim”
ONE day when you find your best friend raking in millions you will have joined,
at that time – just give a thought to what I been saying all along ……
2 things:
1. I need to inform you that I do NOT SELL retial.
I only SELL a “concept”. If you like – fine – if you dont – well, good luck.
2. Apologies for the typos this not being an exam
Hope you become successful in whatever you do.
All the best.
Shekhar:
There are lots of ways to mislead, and AMWAY has brought it to an art form.
Dishonesty is ingrained in the Amway approach to communication. How do you lie? Let me point out a couple of examples.
CostCo Ruse: “What bank account to you deposit your savings from CostCo?” That’s a sales trick to prompt a negative response 100% of the time, because even if someone DOES save money from CostCo they do it by not paying more in the first place.
You will of course respond by going back to cost savings, etc., but the fact is Amway people cross the line from persuasion to trickery.
Two options Ruse: “In this business there are ONLY 2 things: 1) Success. 2) You Quit” Again, another fast talking sales trick. Pretend there are only two options. What about losing money, time and friends and then failing? I’d say that should be listed as 3, and will be most people’s experience.
Another ruse is exaggerating some tenuous affiliation with a big or respected company as being a wholehearted endorsement by that company.
Another ruse is the “I’ve got a friend who’s a millionaire” or “I’ve got a friend who makes $250K a month from Amway.” Of course you do. And of course your friend’s name must remain confidential.
Do they still teach that sometimes you might have to withhold the Amway name to get people to your presentations because of all those bad people telling lies. In essence, you have to lie to people for their own good?
You wrote “…even when Michael Jackson stages a show he HAS to “Promote” it. Is he a “Sleazeball” ?”
Is Michael Jackson a sleazeball? Are you serious? You use an accused child molester as your shining example? Hell yes, he’s a sleazeball. Trusting him to babysit your kids would be as foolish as lending an AMWAY salesman your ATM card!
Hi Not a Victim,
Well, again, appreciate your response.
You missed my point completely. Michael Jackson was just an example. He is a sleazeball granted. But it was just an example. How about (I dont care too much about Rock Stars) e.g. Miley Cyrus or Boss Springstein…..can they stage a show without promotion ? does this make them sleazeballs ? Get my point now ?
And, I keep repeating, “I dont sell a product” – is this not plain English ? So how can you keep calling “Amway Salesman” ?
I dont know about others, MY OWN fast friend from School makes 250K USD. Which I know is a fact. I do not wish to impose this on you nor do I expect you to believe me. You have to find your OWN friend who you trust who has struck gold in Amway – it is only then that you will join. Hopefully by then it wont be too late for you.
To your point, let us CONSIDER that all these are “ruses”. So why am I or people like me doing this ?
1. We (my wife and I) love these products.
2. No one including you can offer me an opportunity for a second income which I
desparately need.
3. I am living paycheck to paycheck. So what is WRONG in looking for an opportunity
when is STARING at me ?
What do I lose ?
- SOME friends who have been influenced by people like you. But who cares for them?
When I am in trouble will they come to help me ? Will they offer money to me ?
Will/can I ask them for money ? So to hell with them.
- I lose NOTHING ! Zilch.
Is it very hard to believe ?
Lastly, why am I “defending” this ? I am made that way. This is a personal bailout.
No governmental doles. The money is there for the making. It would be best if this
is shared and this business is the only one which celebrates sharing of the wealth.
Tell me one which is similar ?
Did I sell you something ? Did I ever insinuate that you should buy something from me ?
So why do you guys keep saying what you do ?
I am repeating myself – please DO NOT believe me. But then, to be fair, DO NOT also believe “heresay”. Also do not blame AMWAY until and unless you SEE it for yourself the business model. Not because your friend said it is bad or because a “Friend’s friend” curses it. If you to not like it – FINE…..and best of luck.
I do what I believe in and what I like – you do the same.
I am personally excited by this opportunity after studying the business model minutely. Does that make me a lier ? a sleazeball ? I have never told a lie. Never cheated anyone of a single dime.
To round up – here is an example:
I have my Amwaite friend (yes I call them friends) who, about 3 years back joined Amway. He approached his neighbors to join. ALL of them avoided him like plague. the neighbors were influenced by people like you – WITHOUT knowing fully about AMWAY. But my friend did not give up. Today he makes about 2680/- a month.
Now, one of his old neighbors worked with me. He also avoided my Amway friend 3 years ago. This colleague of mine – has lost his job (which is unfortunate in itself). I approached him – he did not have any other opening – so he joined. In one of our meetings he recognized my Amway friend who he had avoided long time back. He felt bad about it – but it was already late – he had lost his job and has no other income. If he would have had this SECOND ADDITIONAL income – by now he would have atleast sat out the recession successfully.
Cheers.
Yeah, reading over your comment again this strikes me as really, really sad:
“SOME friends who have been influenced by people like you. But who cares for them?
When I am in trouble will they come to help me ? Will they offer money to me ?
Will/can I ask them for money ? So to hell with them.”
Guess you don’t believe in the saying “He who has friends is rich indeed.”
I bet you will some day
Shekhar:
I take it by the way you talk about your friend that you haven’t made anything from this so far, correct?
How much have you spent, including products you and your wife use.
Be honest…
Hi Not a Victim,
Interesting responses. I like it. Pls bring on all your queries and I can assure you that I have LOGICAL explanation for those. Here are MY responses to the points you raise:
1. Friends.
I am turning 50 shortly. You do injustice to my intelligence when you quote “Who
have friends are rich indeed”. You think in my 50 years I have not had the
opportunity to UNDERSTAND this quote ?
Did I say I dont care about friends ? You missed the point completely again…..
You yourself have quoted it in your response. I meant “who cares of such friends
that wont offer me a second income, who will help me when I need it the most ?
Just for your information. I am blessed with some VERY CLOSE friends who do not
hold AMWAY against me – they have love for me rather than what people have
told them about AMWAY.
Nevertheless, to your point…..I have made some terrific AMWAY friends…..they not
only guide me in the business…but some are even helping out one of my friends
who have lost his job….our network is looking to place him……is this not friendship ?
Am I not rich friend-wise ? Does that make me “Friend-poor” ?
2. Here is the info you demand – it is the truth in all honesty – but since you are not
my friend (yet) you need not believe me…..you need to FIND a friend who is
doing what I do and THEN it will sink in for you:
I have just joined the business 2 weeks ago.
I have spent USD 318/- towards registration.
I have received products that is having my wife jumping with joy.
3. I plan to spend USD 250/- per month on buying stuff from MY OWN business
rather than spending it in Costco or Walmart.
I also plan to buy some additional prouducts which I have not used before.
One such thing is GLUCOSAMINE for my son who suffers from knee pains
randomly. Check out info on this product. My Doctor friends are prescribing this
to his patients!!!
So now you will say “See you will be buying stufff you never used before”.
Yes, but that is because I did not KNOW of this product. Instead I spent about
USD 200/- last year on Doctor visits.
- I have to work harder to overcome objections from cynics like you.
- Once people are convinced that this is the ONLY business that have producted
many many multi millionaires, they HAVE to join this business…there is no other
option available out there…..(unless you win a lotto but you can calculate
the permutation/combination of winning a lotto yourself).
- I am getting to know more and more products that are useful. Instead of using
one such product I was using a host of other ones – in a way I will be consolidating
my use to limited products.
Do you discern “dishonesty” in my response – now can YOU be honest as I have been.
Can I ask you in all honesty:
- WHAT exactly is that you do NOT like about AMWAY ?
- What exactly do you KNOW about AMWAY ?
- What is the EXACT reason that you take pity on folks like me (it is not warranted
though – let me tell you firmly).
May I expect a frank and an honest answer ?
Cheers
Hi Not a Victim,
Do yourself a favour:
Try to learn what Amway is all about (not from a search Engine – but from authentic sources). If you cant find them go to one of the meetings and learn the busines model. See how it works. Look at the products. Learn what is the exact difference between the products and what trash that is hawked in the market for the SAME price. See for yourself WHO is cheating WHO.
Credibility:
IBM, Microsoft, DELL, AT&T, Dish Network, Visa…..these are some of our partners.
Will such companies parter with a Company without checking its market standing ?
Why am I saying all this to you – once again – that is the way I am. One day you will see the light and understand if we ae wrong are is it you.
Join my friend before it is too late. Unless you are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet.
Hi – this is for someone who wrote in the blue box:
My sis was in it once, wasted all her time and in the end made little or nothing………
- Did you bother to find out what Amway is all about ?
- I know of a mother who slogged for a few years sacrificing her time for her kids.
Guess what ?
Her business blossomed so much that she gave up her job (she was the Director
of Nuclear Medicine in one of the leading hospitals).
- On the Sweet 16 of her kids she gave them a BMW each.
Do yourself a favour. Talk to your sister. Do NOT hold it against her that she is in her own business…Life is too short. Say I love you before it is too late.
I should know. I lost my own brother in 1996.
Cheers
Shekhar:
I was wrong about you. I see now that you are not a slick Amway salesman as I first thought, but are a new, excited recruit repeating the sales pitch and desperately wanting to believe.
As for my credibility, at this point I am more financially successful with Amway than you are. You are at -$318 in sales and I have reached breakeven by having incurred $0 in expenses, $0 in lost labor hours. 0 lost friends and having achieved $0 in sales.
Come to think of it, that makes me more financially successful at Amway than the vast majority of Amway salespeople… or any other MLM network marketing scheme. Plus, I have not alienated friends by turning my personal relationships into financial transactions. Whenever you think of family and friends as potential customers, there is going to be a problem. Unless you’re a girl scout.
Shekhar, groups like Amway prey on good but desperate people who are eager to believe. Believe me, you will be better off getting a part time job at WalMart or 7-Eleven. At least you don’t risk losing money for your time and effort.
Not a Victim, you might want to read Amway is not a scam but you can still be scammed. Your comments may be based in some legitimate experiences, but you’re very unfairly overgeneralizing.
Thanks ibofightback. I read the article and now I understand much better.
You are saying Amway is not a scam, it’s just a scammer’s tool. So if you you were scammed and you think it was Scamway, you are wrong because it was just dishonest people using a system and products that, for some reason, is well-suited for fraud.
On a practical level: Who cares? Since there’s no way for someone invited to an Amway presentation or pitch to know whether this is one of them evil Scamwayers or the Dudley DoRight Amway professionals, they would be smart to avoid it altogether. Get a job at WalMart selling the same crap. You’ll get a paycheck and not have to go to nauseating rah-rah meetings.
The article likens the “bad rap” given to Amway to sleazy used car salesmen. It says there’s nothing sinister about used cars, or the practice of selling them… there’s only a problem if the salespeople are unethical. We agree. So if there’s one used car lot with a widespread reputation for fraud, a used car lot with entire books written on their disreputable practices, one might do well to stay away… even if they’ve been fleecing customers for 50 years!
I’d argue that Amway is not more “well suited for fraud” than any other business. We’ve seen investment bankers running ponzi schemes. Today in my corner of the world I’ve been reading of online travel agents selling fake plane tickets.
If you find an Amway “car yard” well known for fraud, then by all means stay away. Indeed it might be worth noting that pretty much every single lawsuit involving Amway for the last 30 years, and all of the critical books, have involved the same group and it’s offshoots, so perhaps, at least in the past, that might be that car yard. What you seem to be advising is that if you find a dodgy car yard selling Toyota’s – don’t just avoid the car yard – avoid Toyota!
But by all means, do your due diligence. Read the self-published critical books (they couldn’t get a real publisher) but also read the books by what most would consider more credible sources, like heads of prestigious business schools. Check with the BBB to find there’s very few complaints. Read recent FTC reports that state there’s so few complaints about members of the DSA that they’re not worth covering in a new “business opportunity rule”. See what organisation like the UN, UNICEF, and the Chamber of Commerce think about the company and products. Check out all the other independent Awards and Recognitions they’ve received around the world. Then decide whether that’s more important to you or you prefer to put more weight on the self-published writings of someone with an agenda, talking about their limited experience in one corner of the Amway world a decade or three ago.
As always, your choice, but that choice says perhaps just as much, or more, about you than it does about the company.
Thanks IBOFIGHTBACK. It is time we explained to misinformed people about their misconceptions. I have been having interesting debate with “Not a Victim”.
I have some points for you “Not a Victim” – I was very busy and could not fine time to debate with you yesterday
Hi Not a Victim,
You have missed the point again. I have NOT asked you about “your credibility”.
How can I – we are not even aquaintainces in the normal sense of the word.
What I said was “what would it take for people like you to believe in credibility in Amway” – therefore I quoted big guns like Microsoft, IBM etc supporting Amway. My question to you was: Do you now believe that Amway is credible ?
I would not go so far as questioning your intelligence like you did mine earlier (I am loving this healthy debate and one day you will understand the difference I am trying to make). But HOW on earth can you say that you are more successful with Amway with 0 investiment,0 in everyghing and on top of that you are advising me to take a second job at Walmart or 7Eleven !!! How about the following:
:):):)
- 0 chance of retiring early.
- 0 chance of success.
- 100 % spending money on lousy products.
- 100 % belief that stuff like colgate was produced before start of mankind.
- 100% mentality of an employee and NOT an employer. See this: when you visit
a restaurant they say “employees must wash their hands before leaving the
restroom” – they NEVER say “Employers must wash their hands….”.
I am impressed by the length you people will go to trash Amway WITHOUT understanding anything.
THIS IS PRECISELY the thing I wish to avoid in my life and THAT is the reason I want my OWN business. You guys out there are PROGRAMMED by the elders and friends “not to have your business” but to WORK for someone.
By the way “Not a Victim” – you have NOT answered my questions. I did answer yours did’nt I. So now are we being fair? Pls tell me in all honesty like I did.
Unless you answer the 3 basic Questions I asked about Amway, I think it will not be futile to carry on this debate. If you do – we have a deal.
Cheers
Shekhar:
You have been brainwashed. I suggest you start your deprogramming by reading “The Ten Big Lies of MLM” at the link below. Here’s an interesting fact:
“For almost everyone who invests MLM turns out to be a losing financial proposition. This is not an opinion, but a historical fact. Consider some notable examples from among the largest MLMs.
“In the largest of all MLMs, Amway, only 1/2 of one percent of all distributors make it to the basic level of “direct” distributor, and the average income of all Amway distributors is about $40 a month. That is gross income before taxes and expenses. When costs are factored, it is obvious that nearly all suffer a loss. Making it to “direct”, however, is not a ticket to profitability, but to greater losses. When the Wisconsin Attorney General filed charges against Amway, tax returns from all distributors in the state revealed an average net loss of $918 for that state’s “direct” distributors.”
http://www.falseprofits.com/MLM%20Lies.html
With Amway, you have:
- 0 chance of retiring early.
- 0 chance of success.
- 100 % spending money on lousy products.
- 100 % belief that your Amway “friends” are interested in anything other than picking your pocket.
- 100% mentality that you can get rich having others sell the same stuff WalMart sells cheaper, more efficiently and without annoying those around you.
It’s a pipe dream, a scam that uses cult techniques. Run, Shekhar, run like the wind while you still can!!!!
Ahhh, joy. Another person who claims to provide evidence that Amway is a scam by pointing out that only folk who work hard make money!
Did you join Amway thinking it was some get rich quick pyramid scam and then get disappointed and disillusioned when it took actual months and years of hard work to make good money?
Read Amway Success: What are your odds? for a proper analysis.
ibofightback:
Please give me back the brain cells I sacrificed trying to decipher that convoluted and irrelevant post.. The Professor made a stupid analogy and you made an even stupider response.
Is that the Amway strategy of baffling with b*llsh*t? Or do you just think you sound intelligent writing stuff so boring it will never be read?
Sorry, but I think the http://www.falseprofits.com/MLM%20Lies.html article is a little clearer and is backed up with facts.
The Wisconsin Attorney General found that Amway distributors lost money across the board, and those who advanced to “direct” level got to lose even more!
Some wealth-building system… Impressive
Have you read the Wisconsin case? I have. It’s from more than THIRTY YEARS AGO! They took folk who once, in just one month, did enough volume to become called a direct. It was common then for folk to do a big “push” selling cookware or some such to qualify, then the volume disappeared. To reach that level now requires 6 months – ie a much more stable business – AND Amway has more than doubled the bonuses for this level.
Now, what were those 192 directs doing? According to the WAG case, 139 of them had annual adjusted gross incomes in excess of $12,000 and the average for *all* Wisconsin directs was . That’s over $40,000 in today’s dollars. So where did the “loss” FitzPatrick reports come from?
First, business expense deductions. Any smart business owner goes out of their way to minimize their taxable income as much as legally possible. Indeed, some go too far, and the IRS has in the past prosecuted Amway distributors for claiming too many expenses and losses when they didn’t really have them, or weren’t actually running a business anymore – just claiming the deductions! Second was he went and added back in all of those 53 “directs” earning less than $12,000. I’d venture to suggest many of them had quite low incomes, for reasons such as I outlined above. Guess what that does to your averages?
Yup, more of those folk not working, and not earning an income, and you’d have us believe they’d been “scammed”? People who worked hard made money, and people who didn’t didn’t, and this is a scam? Pleeeasssee…
As for Mr FitzPatrick himself, I could write all day about his wacky analysis (and you accuse ME of b*llsh*t?), but instead I’ll recommend court-certified MLM expert Len Clement’s excellent expose – Anti-MLM Zealots Part II – Robert FitzPatrick. Interestingly, in a case a couple of years ago against Quixtar in California (Quixtar won), the plaintiffs tried to call FitzPatrick as an expert. The judge pretty much laughed it out of the court and wouldn’t allow him.
Hi “Not a Victim”,
Thanks for your advice. Sorry to inform you, I have not been brainwashed as you presume.
Why should I run ? I have found my friend whom I can trust when he says he earned a big bonus. I have gone out of the way to join. This is the difference.
Nevertheless, you have STILL not answered my questions.
Cheers
ibofightback,
pls email me.
thanks/Shekhar
Shekhar, I would if I had your email
Leave me a comment on The Truth About Amway or Amway Talk
Shekhar:
I’m not sure which 3 questions you are talking about. You’ve said some bizarre things and I’m kind of confused. Let me know if these are not the correct questions.
Do I believe “colgate was produced before start of mankind?”
No I don’t.
Do I think it’s unfair that restaurant signs say “employees must wash their hands before leaving the restroom” – and NEVER say “Employers must wash their hands…
No, I don’t think I care.
Who’s more successful with Amway, someone who’s down $318 or someone who’s down $0.
At this point, neither. However, only one may end up losing money.
ibofightback:
Since you seem to be so up on all the latest statistical data, I’m sure you can tell us what the average income of Amway distributors at the different levels… or do we just have to be impressed that Shekhar has a “friend” who knows someone who makes $250K.
If you could answer the question without linking to one of your incomprehensible and self-important posts it would be much appreciated:)
Slightly out of date data as Amway has increased the bonuses significantly, however average income stats from 2006 in the United States were -
Q-12 Platinum $47,472.
Emerald $72,241
Diamond $146,995
In 2000 average incomes for other levels of achievement were also reported -
Platinum $27,064
Founders Platinum$31,047
Q12 Award $39,846
Emerald $64,639
Founders Emerald $84,577
Diamond $139,298
Founders Diamond $228,091
Exec. Diamond and Above $495,152
Founders Exec. and Above $1,303,190
You can see explanations of all the “titles” on Amway Wiki
Sorry you find my step by step with explanation posts incomprehensible. Feel free to ask for clarifications for the parts you don’t understand.
I must say I find it amazing you can come on a public forum and spout all this criticism and haven’t even done the smallest piece of research, such as reading http://www.thisbiznow.com for statistics.
Note: as you can see by comparing the same levels, incomes went up quite a bit from 2000 to 2007. This is also income from just one country. Most Diamond and above (and many below) end up developing Amway businesses in multiple countries. There are folk who qualify Diamond and higher in more than a dozen countries and get those kind of incomes in all of them.
ibofightback:
Interesting that you list incomes ranging from $47,000 to $146,000, and even $1,000,000+ per year at the top level, yet leave out the fact that even your questionable source says “The Average Monthly Gross Income for ‘Active’ IBOs was $115″
Hmmm… How many “Founders Exec. and Above” earning $1,303,190 exist?
How many active IBOs are there to bring the “average” down to a meager $1380 gross income… which I assume is before taxes and doesn’t include overhead and necessary expenses such as travel, meetings, fees, books, tapes and other crap needed to maintain the “millionaire mindset” and PMA.
The fact that you toss out the rare, highest end numbers (if they even are true) rather than the income of the vast majority of those involved is why Amway gets such a bad rap. Nothing is straightforward with you guys. It’s like you’re allergic to honesty.
I guess it works when you’re preaching to your lobotomized choir, and to people so desperate to believe like poor Shekhar here. But it’s very transparent and annoying to those who haven’t drank your koolaid.
Only one question needs to be asked – did you read the definition used to define “active” for the purposes of the average income?
I knew something productive would come of this discussion. I’ve invented a new saying: “Like trying to get a straight answer from an Amway salesman.”
Yes, I read it. I also read the definition of “gross income.” and I am already familiar with the term “average.”
The reason people hate you guys is not because of an unfair rap on the Internet, it’s because you can never just address an issue straightforwardly, honestly and in a non-annoying fashion. That’s also why you don’t get invited to more parties.
The question is simply what, on average, happens to people like our friend Shekhar when they join up. On average, how much do they spend, how much to they earn in year one, year two, etc. How many stick with it to the point of recouping their investment.
It’s a pretty simple concept (which probably makes it instantly unacceptable). No need to parade the plutonium level members $1,000,000 checks… I’d be interested to see the actual results of 1000 or so Shekhars a couple years down the road.
Of course, if this information is not available I can certainly understand. The state lotteries and casinos don’t advertise the thousands who go broke and never win either.
So you read it and don’t have a problem with the income statistics? Don’t you think $1380 is pretty good income for asking your brother, once, if he wants to buy an XS energy drink (and he says no) – don’t you think that’s a pretty good income? What would the hourly rate be? $1380 for about 10 secs – nearly half a million dollars an hour! Pretty good money, no? Or how about you decide to buy some prestige cosmetics for your wife’s birthday, and it get’s you a 3% rebate from Amway. Presto – $1380!!
What a great deal!
That’s not the way it works though is it? The first guy probably made $0. The second maybe got ten or twenty bucks back in a rebate. But they’re all included in those statistics!
And you think that’s bad?
Here’s the reality. Most people who register with Amway never doing a single thing after registering, they don’t even order any products. 7 out of 10 don’t renew their business after a year. No more than 20% ever attend any seminars or buy any training or marketing material. No more than 5% ever do the recommended work for even one month. No more than 1% ever do the recommended work for at least 6 months, the minimum considered necessary to build a profitable business.
Heck, another MLm, Shaklee, told the FTC that 85% of the people who register with them do so purely to get the products cheaper. Amway doesn’t ask folk that, but it’s probably not so different. If they join, and successfully order a product at member pricing, they’ve succeeded haven’t they? Yet it would appear you consider them “Amway failures”.
So, short answer is less than 1% go on to make any decent income, and that’s entirely fair and equitable because less than 1% put in the consistent work over time necessary.
As a UK judge put it recently,it’s an opportunity, not a guarantee. It’s low cost, so pretty much anyone can give it a go and decide if it’s for them or not. If they decide it’s not, and they don’t think they got their money’s worth with what they have spent, then they can get refunds, no questions asked.
How more fair can you get?
“…short answer is less than 1% go on to make any decent income…”
Thank you.
That wasn’t so hard, was it?
You already knew that, but you’d coated it in so much BS as to be almost dishonest. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Now let’s do the flipside of what it means –
close to 100% of folk who do what is recommended consistently for 1-2years earn $47,000k/yr and higher.
Not bad money for a part-time business that can be started for peanuts
Not a Victim,
So you missed my 3 simple questions which I had asked of you on March 7th.
I repeat them again – copied from above:
Do you discern “dishonesty” in my response – now can YOU be honest as I have been.
QUOTE
Can I ask you in all honesty:
- WHAT exactly is that you do NOT like about AMWAY ?
- What exactly do you KNOW about AMWAY ?
- What is the EXACT reason that you take pity on folks like me (it is not warranted
though – let me tell you firmly).
May I expect a frank and an honest answer ?
UNQUOTE.
Cheers
I attended my first Amway presentation was decades ago when I was in high school. My girlfriend was recruited at her retail job by a creepy couple who wrung my shirttale in water to show how much detergent was in the material, dipped my hand in shoe polish, etc. They were deceptive, annoying and had a cultlike mentality. Even back then they wouldn’t disclose that the “opportunity” was Amway ahead of time. My girlfriend got involved for a short time, invested some, became annoying for a while then quit.
Over the years, I saw literally dozens go through the same process… In the beginning they get sucked in to the entrepreneurial Amway dream (illusion) and are crazy excited with all the possibilities. They buy a bunch of crap, books, tapes, go to meetings, and learn to doubletalk around the truth. Soon they are justifying things, like not telling you the name to get you to presentations, and general sneakiness. They are no longer fun to be around, because they see personal relationships as financial opportunities. Once they’ve used up their initial friend-imposition sales, one day they realize that they’re not going to make any money at this, that the retail world is fulfilling that role just fine without them. Eventually, everyone I’ve ever encountered snaps out, but has lost money and damaged their relationships and reputations. They feel like schmucks and deservedly so.
So where does all the money come that you see in those big checks at Amway sales meetings? I suspect that it’s from all those schmucks who get sucked into the cult dream and who buy crap and sell to friends til they lose them and quit in embarrassment. 99.6% says that will happen to you too Shekhar.
Sorry, that’s not a legitimate business model.
Of course, that’s my opinion from being annoyed by decades of Amway wannabe dreamers. And it’s shared by many many others.
Not a Victim:
So you answered the first question – but not the second and the third.
As for your response. Agreed, some people do not upfront say this is Amway. I for one, do just that with all. If they are interested to at least know – I will explain – if not – then I dont waste my time and theirs.
Now ask yourself. Why do some people do this ? It is because there are people like you who have spoilt this good company’s name. I was exactly like you – WITHOUT knowing how this works, I kept myself away from this! But then I found my childhood friend who retired 8 years ago – we recently met and got talking – I am still working from paycheck to paycheck. Whereas he travels the world and has a high-flying lifestyle. Does this answer your question “where does all the money come that you see in those big checks at Amway sales meetings ?”.
And, NO, I DO NOT see those checks in the meetings. There are people like me who have found a source they can trust. So we have gone OUT OF THE WAY to join Amway – and not the other way round. So all I need to do is to locate people like me.
Let me tell you some more (my question: what you know about Amway). What you have said is what all snobbish (Yes, I was one too till now) people are saying “Amway is no good” WITHOUT FINDING out how and why it works.
Ask yourself: Are you interested an a PLAN-B – i.e. an additional income i.e. IN ADDITION to what you must be earning thru your normal 9-5 job (of course, you need not tell me that you land up working 8 till 8 like me and get paid only 40 hrs a week).
If you are NOT interested in this income, then lets forget everything we have been discussing. If you are in fact interested, then say so and I can take the trouble to explain to you how and why it works.
Otherwise I will be breaking my head against a wall and so will you. If you are interested, if not from us, GO FIND OUT what is Amway and how it works. If not, at least DO NOT curse it just because “your friend is cursing it”.
People give up Amway before they cut even – because they think this is a “Get rich quick” scheme. They do not understand the hard work involved and neither they have the patience. THESE PEOPLE have spoilt Amway name. So be it. People like me want to be AS FAR AWAY as possible from such people. There are 280 million out there – if I find just 20-50 people like me – I am fine. THIS IS THE HARD WORK – find out the like minded people.
Do you think all the top brands including Microsoft/IBM/Dell are nuts to partner with Amway ?
My son owns a Dell computer – Dell is Amway partner now – and I have my own business – my own “Shop” if you will – so the next time I need to buy Dell stuff, I will buy from “my own shop”
:):)
Cheers
Not a Victim,
By the way. Did you notice Amway DOES NOT solicit people to “click here” to find out more or “submit your name/email/phone number” to find out “more”.
People, can you not see thru this “Age old tricks” and are you not intelligent enough to understand which one is genuine ?
I just checked a few links on this page and am quite angry at people being “NAIVE” on one end and sending in their name/phone number etc to “Find out more” froma “Get rich quick” scheme on one hand and “KNOW ALL” and cursing Amway on the other.
Come on guys!! You want to earn big bucks in a month ? Don’t even come near AMWAY. Thank God it is not for people like you!!!
Cheers
Hi – Just to let you know my good friend and neighbor who touted NuSkin recently just got out of the business – I say she was in it for six months with her hubby. We are such good friends that I forgave her for dragging me into this event that turned out to be one of those scam seminars. I even bought products from her because I felt sorry for her. Those products are still sitting under my bed unused. They were very expensive. Basically, do the math. You only make the money if you recruit enough people who each recruit others on their own and every member stuck with his/her membership. As far as my friend was concerned, people started making U-turns when they saw her because nobody wanted to listen to the other products that NuSkin has, etc. I avoided her like the plague after a while. She became a different person and is constantly defending NuSkin even though it’s sucking out her savings. She eventually got out of the business after a few months. Her house is on sale right now. I think NuSkin was her attempt to catch up on her bills but that failed miserably for her.
Beware of trying to push these items off to coworkers too. It can cost you your day-time job (full-time job is important in that you get benefits and a real paycheck without having to buy their products over and over). With layoffs coming through the pipeline, the annoying NuSkin/Amway person can be the next in line to get canned – companies can lay off people with very little reason.
I agree with “Not a Victim” in that you cannot make money at the expense of family and friends and consider them not worthy of your friendship simply because they can’t afford to buy from you anymore. When you push your friends and family to buy from you, they no longer want to hang out with you because they think you’re only into them for the money they can give you.
I personally like Costco in that I can buy the stuff and use them and not feel like I have to buy more. I purchase items to use them and not to resell them to family and friends and make more money off them. I also give these products away to family and friends at no charge for them to try and it doesn’t matter to me how much it’s costing me to give these items for free. If they like it, they can go to Costco to buy these very same items and they thank me. I’m always glad to be able to help them. That’s what friends and family is all about. I don’t ever plan on making a dime off them. I don’t have any ulterior motives when I have others try my products.
The business model for MLM’s don’t work. I went to the seminar that said if I recruit 10 people and each of those 10 people recruit 10 people who recruit 10 more on their own and everybody stays recruited forever – then I will be rich. Well, the probability of that happening is very slim.
Now, I steer away from MLM recruiters. You can bet if anybody at work tries to recruit me, I will straighten that person out big time.
I think MLM works for foreign people who can’t find good opportunities in this country and are desperate for the money. This is based on my personal observation. A lot of people doing this type of work are Chinese and Filipinos because their family and friends are very tightly knitted and they tend to trust each other. These are very trusting and good people who are easily misled. That’s why they are ideal preys for MLM.
If you were to go to an MLM seminar and I’ve been to quite a few in college and one recently (I was dragged there under false pretenses). Most of the people attending are minorities with broken English or people who lack a 4-yr college degree. Maybe people with 4-yr degrees and full-time careers are too busy? Based on my experience, it doesn’t work unless you have a pushy personality and your customers are people who are afraid to offend you or else you have something on them.
These are just my thoughts. If AMWAY/NuSkin offers such great products, then maybe they should just open up stores in malls and sell them off the shelves instead of recruiting people and charging them membership fees. These wonderful products should speak for themselves – right?
If I ever make a lot of money on an opportunity, I would just keep it to myself and not share. Why would I want to create so much competition in the same market space and dilute my customer space – right? I’ll just keep selling my “great products” and never recruit anybody. But then the corporate office would not earn any membership fees. But then if the products are so great and should sell like hot cakes, why bother with membership fees?
I loved the “I have plenty of AMWAY friends” comment !!!
Sounds eerily like “I have plenty of SCIENTOLOGY friends”
‘beware of mlm” (wow, you ARE inventive):
YOu must take pity on yourself at your narrow understanding (did you say you were a college grad ?) – do I SOUND like a person with broken English and without a collge degree ? (never mind my 25 year of executive experience)…. ?
You menioned “NuSkin” right ? – do you know these are all spin offs of Amway ? Amway is celebrating 50 years. Brands like Barnes and Noble, IBM, Microsoft, Shop.com, Office Depot, all Cell Companies etc.etc…..have all partnered with Amway…..you need not ask WHY – because it won’t make a difference to you…..because you are a college grad…..and all Amway franchises who I know (IT Directors, high-flying consultants, Doctors are all no match to you…..of course).
You write, quote “The business model for MLM’s don’t work. I went to the seminar that said if I recruit 10 people and each of those 10 people recruit 10 people who recruit 10 more on their own and everybody stays recruited forever – then I will be rich” unquote.
If THIS is your understanding then it is GOOD that you are not a part of Amway….you are welcome to:
- Shop at Costco for the rest of your lift.
- Go to work Monday to Friday for someone else till you are 65.
- Work at Walmart after 65 (unless you win a lotto).
- Make Waltons the billionaires of the world.
- Advertise for someone else (say to your friend “Costco is a good place to shop”.
- Continue being friends with your “Friends” – no you cannot leave them, no.
- Never belive Amway is a 50 Billion company.
PLEASE NEVER CONSIDER:
- To EVEN try for a plan B (aside from your job).
- Work outside or office hours for YOUR OWN.
- To have a “Decent” life.
Why do:
- You badmouth Amway without KNOWING how it works, without FINDING OUT
how it works…..or NOT UNDERSTANDING how it works……
and I:
- Waste my time on the likes of you….
Sorrym I do not mean it personally to you…..it is just “YOU”…….who make our life challenging…….:)
Cheers/Shekhar
Hey Shekhar, I’m not going to pity you, if you have belief in your ability to make it work and have that much pride in it, then I wish you the best. Nobody here wishes you harm, in fact this website is here fore the sake of preventing it. Whether people start a franchise or join a MLM, the reason they do it is for the exact same reasons you say: be your own boss, supplement your income, opportunities for explosive growth. And I can understand that at the age of 50, you may want to try something new, or just want a chance at that dream you saw your friend living. But I think a lot of the people who post here have failed not because they didn’t try hard enough, but because all the promises they were told never happened, and the longer they stayed, they only lost more money. But like you said, as a way of supplementing income it may have promise, but as a main source of income there is just too much uncertainty to raise a family that way, and if you have any children it is not right by them. You can’t feed your family with a promise of potential gain, you need to be making real, genuine money for that.
And even though Amway offers everyone the equal opportunity of success, not everyone starts out at the same point, right? Some people are naturally sellers and charismatic, others have a strong family and friend connections who will buy from them, but for many people they will just hit dead ends. Is putting my money into Amway more profitable then putting it into a slot machine? Also, Amway sells things that people don’t need, you have to persuade them to spend more on basic necessities especially in this bad economy. If you are already in the paycheck to paycheck position, would you buy things based on how well they work or how cheap they are (also, I’ve used Costco detergent, it works just as well as Tide, and I get roughly the number of loads as written on the box).But I’ll believe you that yours is better.
You say your wife loves these products… Then what is the purpose of both of you joining? She already has access to the products you want for a good price, and don’t you guys have access to the same people to sell to? I don’t understand the basic premise, I think. Is Amway’s purpose to sell these products to it’s members so they can resell to others, or is it to get other people to join by paying a fee so that they can get Amway products at a lower price? What is your business plan to attract people to their products? Door to door, or just between friends and family? How do you constantly meet new people? Your selling ability is basically dependant on how much people trust you, right? And then to recruit them also is based on your ability to show the promise of the Amway idea. Perhaps your friend made all his actual money by convincing people he already had made a lot of money, so they signed up too as his referrals, right? Isn’t it possible he is taking advantage of you too?
But besides all that, I think Amway’s angle is that they want to make the buyer feel they are buying something unique. Their products contain all kinds of strange herbs, or “cutting edge” chemicals, to differentiate them, and people are continually fascinated with this stuff. Look at the shamwow, for example. It is old technology, passed of as something new and amazing, and people buy into it. That’s why I will agree there is a market, and I also agree that Asian/Hispanic minorities do make a great target for these things since they are more readily believing in herbal/miraculous things. If you can find a group like that with disposable income, you might be successful. But just because there’s a market out there, doesn’t mean success. Like any selling job, you can only bring the horse to the water.
Also, it seems all the ties of IBM, Dell, Microsoft, are all client-based, as in they were hired to do work for Amway. What amway does has no bearing in the technical markets they are involved in, but those companies most likely handle their internal infrastructure. They are paid to do so, it’s not because they believe in Amway. You shouldn’t use that as a line.
Hi “Good Luck, man”
I liked your post. Will respond back when I can find some time…….
I am overwhelmed by the way people are badmouthing Amway……….without UNDERSTANDING it…..
But one thing quickly…..You can find Microsoft, IBM Dell products on Amway…..
Cheers/Shekhar
IBM, Microsoft, etc – they all did work for Amway. Their credibility has nothing to do with Amway. Same with partner stores. Basically, they have Amway’s sales force sell stuff for them. They do not sell Amway goods.
Nearly all of those who get involved in Amway will realize a net loss. Those who get hooked on the system may realize massive losses. The entire system is a leach that attaches itself onto the Amway business and sucks the IBOs dry. If you don’t believe me, just do the math. Most IBOs are at 100 PV where they make $9 a mont or 300 PV where they make $36 a month.
The system along with other fees cost at least $100 a month on average, and that is the lower end of the estimates.
[...] IS AMWAY A SCAM? [...]
I DON’T UNDERSTAND THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO SAY THAT AMWAY IS A “SCAM”. PEOPLE HAVE NEVER ACHIEVED ANYTHING IN THEIR LIVES AND OBVIOUSLY DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WITH THIS BUSINESS, THINKING THAT BY SIGNING, MONEY WILL START POURING INTO THEIR ACCOUNT. YOU FAILURES ARE FINDING AN EXCUSE AND YOU KNOW IT!!! I DON’T CARE IF IT TAKES ME 10 YEARS TO HAVE TREMENDOUS INCOME. BUT I WILL NOT GO TO WORK AS YOU ARE, SO CALLED SLAVES!!! YOU GOTTA THINK OUTSIDE OF YOUR BOX AND YOUR STUPID FRIENDS WHO ARE PULLING YOU DOWN TO THEIR CRAP NEST.
YOU KNOW THAT BY GOING TO WORK, YOU ARE FULFILLING SOMEBODY ELSES DREAM AND GOALS??? OH YOU HAVE ONE TOO? REALLY? –YOU PROBABLY FOUND ONE THAT WOULD ACCOMMODATE WITH THE INCOME YOU ARE GETTING. YOUR DREAMS MUST BE SO BIG THAT FACTS WILL NOT COUNT…
Amway apologists nearly always repeat the same tired themes: financial freedom; the 2 to 5 year plan; fire the boss; being ‘independent’, and so forth. They are taught to ‘believe’ in the face of some very disturbing circumstances where they are always required to ‘pay out’ and not necessarily ‘receive in.’
Amway products are basically so priced as to be absolutely unretailable outside of the ‘distribution chain’ of ‘distributors’ who for all intents and purposes are the only retail customers that Amway can brag about. These erstwhile business men and women raid their own warehouses and stock the excess in their pantries.
Amway believers are exposed to the illogical ‘tool and function’ business run by the Amway ‘kingpins’. This is not a benign affair as some Amway believers claim. Total expense for the vast amount of books, CDs, tapes, phone message systems, quarterly rally attendance, and related transportation-lodging expense can extend into the thousands of dollars. Yes, one CD can be about $8 dollars, but this is just a mere drop in the bucket to what I’ve personally seen people actually spend. Amway expects all these ’supposed independent business people’ to basically cover all their own ‘over-head’ and provide many hours of personal time (for basically free) in the hope that they recruit others.
Amway IBOs may pay lip service to the idea of ’selling’ the badly overpriced, unremarkable products, but in the end, they are taught the ‘art’ of ‘duplication’ and the well known principle of ‘buy from yourself and teach others to do the same’ for which they believe is the ultimate key to finding riches in the Amway ‘game of greed.’ Sadly, in the end, the enrich the top of the pyramid kingpin distributors and the Ada Devos-Van Andel criminogenic swindlers based in Ada, Michigan.
Amway apologists brag that Amway has been in existence for over 50 years and hold this out as legitimacy. They fail to mention the thousands and thousands of people who have been suckered, run through the Amway grist mill, over this period of time where the rolling failure rate for nearly all entrants approaches 100 percent. Amway has been described by Robert Fitzpatrick, pyramid scheme expert, as the ‘American Scam’.
It is interesting to note that Amway, at the present day, founded as the ‘American Way’ does most of its business in places like Communist China. They seek to find new ’suckers’ for their scheme outside of the U.S. because their affairs and reputation have deservedly been scuttled in the Americas. Indeed the financial and social distress of the Amway cult makes Amway a pernicious world cult, which for all intents and purposes makes it just as pernicious of a scheme as Scientology (which has recently been convicted in France of Stealing the livelihood of believing ‘adherents’ there).
By a majority opinion of high justices in the world’s largest democracy, the Republic of India, Amway is in violation of India’s laws against money circulation schemes, similar to U.S. laws against pyramid and Ponzi schemes in the U.S..
Amway hides behind an ever increasing ‘labyrinth’ of independent corporate structures, but rest assured, all the money extracted from this ongoing regime goes into the coffers of U.S. based racketteers. These fellows then use these ‘revenues’ to buy protection under the guise of one Richard Devos.
Recently it has been announced that the American Way is ‘outsourcing’ many of its corporate ‘accountant’ jobs out of country. These folks after having ‘taken’ Americans for half a century are basically moving on. They benefit by taking their affairs to China and elsewhere, where differences in culture and language tends to mask the truth of how they’ve swindled the American public in their own homeland.
To advocate Amway to others should be a crime: Intent to Defraud. Word to the wise. quixtarisacult.
Hi Quixtarisacult,
You have written “English” I presume….alphabets are familiar….but cannot understnad a word….either that or you are completely confused my friend. Else, pray explain your statements like “By a majority opinion of high justices in the world’s largest democracy, the Republic of India, Amway is in violation of India’s laws against money circulation schemes, similar to U.S. laws against pyramid and Ponzi schemes in the U.S.. ”
Amway is LEGAL in the countries you mention. Is this too hard to understand or are you a kid pretending to be a grown-up??? Or maybe you have been “programmed” to say these things…after all it fashionable to badmouth Amway……
Guys, it is futile explaining the concept to you. You say I have been brainwashed….I say YOU have been brainwashed.
Here is a real life incident that dates back to 1977 when Amway was successful even when the model was to sell door to door……:
One Amway businessman (he is a multi millionnaire now) was explaining the opportunity to a group of about 500 people in a posh hotel in Atlanta….circa 1977…..One smart-aleck from the audience started to speak in loud whispers…..”oh this Amway thing”…..”I KNOW it does’t work”…..repeating over and over again…causing disturbance….that was his intent…..Now read this:
AB: You sir…you in the middle…yes you….can you pls stand up ?
SA: (looking around…getting up) yes ?
AB: Sir, what is your name ?
SA: Smart Aleck!
AB: Do you have a job ?
SA: Yes of course!
AB: Do you own a house ?
SA: (proudly)…You bet I do!
AB: Do you have a mortgage ?
SA: Yes.
AB: Does your wife work ?
SA: Yes she does.
AB: Cars ?
SA: (proudly) – Two!
AB: Care payments ?
SA: Two.
AB: Sir, I do’nt have a job, my wife does not work. I have 3 houses. No mortgage payments. 27 cars (today he has 44 cars!), no car payments…now, one of us is stupid…..can you tell me who is it ?
Kapisch ????? No ? I guessed.
Cheers/Shekhar
Shekhar:
Not that a 32 year old wisecrack by a supposed millionaire isn’t impressive… but let’s talk facts. How close are you to making your first million with Amway?
Why don’t you dazzle us with a month-by-month breakdown of how much you spent on Amway, how much time you invested, and how much revenue you generated?
March 7, 2009 you wrote:
“I am turning 50 shortly.
I have just joined the business 2 weeks ago.
I have spent USD 318/- towards registration.
I have received products that is having my wife jumping with joy.
I plan to spend USD 250/- per month on buying stuff from MY OWN business
rather than spending it in Costco or Walmart.
I have my Amwaite friend (yes I call them friends) who, about 3 years back joined Amway…Today he makes about 2680/- a month.”
How much did you make in March? April? May? June? July? August? September? October? How much did you spend?
I don’t hear someone open a restaurant and say its ok not to have customers because he eats for free.
My guess is you are still pouring money into the pit and pretending that your own purchases justify the scam you defend. Otherwise, you would be bragging about your income and not repeating some stupid anecdote.
And by the way, the millionaire you quote… he made his millions off poor deluded souls like you who idolize those bloodsuckers who are feeding off your dreams… hoping some day you can feed off the dreams of others.
guest (why not the real name ???),
Siiiiigggggghhhhhh!!!! How to REASON with the likes of you is beyond my comprehension ! Actually, my whole reason is to fight the UNREASONABLE BADMOUTHING of something…..without knowledge, without information, without KNOWING what the heck it is all about. Why should I waste time with people like you sometimes pains me. But well, one more attempt to get indignated about your stupid statements like “pouring money”, bloodsuckers etc.
- Your Boss at work is a Bloodsucker!! but you wont know that – right ?
- You would rather make Walmart rich than yourself, but you wont know that right ?
- You start a business, when someone asks you “Are you a millionnaire yet ?
people like you get mad and argue that it takes years to break even.
But you wont admit that right ?
- Suppose you buy say a laundry detergent, you wont ask the question “First tell
me who is making money and only then will I pay the amount”. You wont
do that because you know Walmar is making money and you are PROUD
to fill in the coffers of Walmart.
But people like you are INTELLIGENT – not ignorant and “cult like” like us poor
mortals (we have the likes of NASA scientists, PHD’s, doctors, engneers etc etc
but so WHAT right ? we are ALL of us so stupid that we cannot equal
ONE person’s (i.e. YOU) intelligence ! You will be the FIRST person to ask
the question when buying Amway stuff “First tell me who is making money and
only then I will buy!!!!!!!!!!!”.
Wow, what intelligence, what persoanlity !
I hate to say this (mind you, I will never say this) but here is what the SAME multi millionnaire Amway Businessman says – but yes, I AGREE to what he says:
SA: I hate to buy Amway Stuff. They are so expensive.
AB: (trying to reason) – well the products are concentrated……..
SA: No I will not buy them.
AB: Then stay broke idiot ! (and moves on to explain the opportunity to the next person who wants to make a difference in his life).
One more example:
Time x Rate = Salary.
I am sure you are a math genious. Not like us. So figure out WHAT can make the Salary zero!!
When you figure out what could be the reasons for Salary to become zero, ask yourself, what can you do (take another job? or do SOMETHING IN ADDITION to your job ).
Go figure and only then write to me. Otherwise why bother ?
According to you – I am stupid and an idiot.
According to me – you are misinformed and not a fair person.
So there.
Cheers/Shekhar
Guys (all and sundry),
Can you not understand:
JOB AMWAY
A guy can give a job/can also give pink slip. No question of pink slip.
You buy stuff anyway (do you ask question But SAME stuff
“Who is making money ?”) Why ask question “who is….”.
Salary is POSITION Based. Money is PERFORMANCE based.
You work hard. Your boss earns More. YOu work hard. you earn more.
Salary = Time x Rate Money = how much you work.
Salary can become zero. Earnings cannot become zero
for 3 generations.
Is it DIFFICULT to understand – difficult to penetrate the coconut ???
Cheers/Shekhar
Shekhar:
Blah… Blah… Blah… You have been blabbing on here since last March about how much people can make selling Amway. But you won’t answer the direct question: How much have YOU made since February when you joined?
So far all you have said is that you spent $318 to join and you have been your only customer. That confirms the suspicion about Amway: that most of the sales are just to delusional suckers with garages and spare bedrooms full of unsold stuff people can get cheaper at Wal Mart. The only people they sell to are the friends and relatives who feel sorry for them or are embarrassed for them or get cornered. But that won’t last cuz they’ll learn to avoid them quickly.
I can guarantee the few normal friends you might still have (if any) are really sick of hearing your increasingly desperate rants and raves about how great Scamway is and about distant mythical people (who are not you) who make money.
Forget the rest: How much have you made? How many repeat customers do you have? How much money and time have you spent?
Tell me I’m wrong: You would have made more if you had spent the same hours working at Wal Mart, wouldn’t you?
On second thought, don’t answer. Your silence does more damage to the Amway reputation than any of the critics can.
Shekhar: I have a great business opportunity for you. If you had started this opportunity at the same time you went into Amway you would have netted more than $4000 by now (profit!). Best yet there is no upfront fee, no inventory and no risk. Plus, you have an opportunity to get great benefits.
According to the KMart greeter ad “The Customer Greeter is responsible for consistently keeping the customer at the center of everything he/she does. Greets all customers as they enter the store, and is knowledgeable of the store layout and sale merchandise on hand. Knowledgeable of store, services and locations of merchandise.A comprehensive and competitive benefit program is designed to meet the needs of our associates and their families. Benefits offered include: Medical and Dental Plans, Health Care and Dependent Daycare Flexible Spending Accounts, Short and Long-Term Disability, Company Paid and Optional Life Insurance, Business Travel Insurance, Merchandise Discount, Kmart Advantage Rx, Sears Holdings Corporation Associate Stock Purchase Plan, 401(k) Savings Plan, Vacation Time with Personal Days, National Holidays…”
At $11 an hour for 10 hours a week, you will be much farther ahead than you’d be with Scamway. Plus, you won’t annoy as many people. And you get to wear a cool uniform! Plus, I hear the people at the top have made millions.
Hi gues,
Regarding your last post….you do not know the SIMPLE disctinction between a “JOB” and a “BUSINESS” – you are completely utterly confused and hence (although I hope not) you will remain where you are….I already have job thank you very much….I dont need another JOB…..so when you disguise a job a biz, that is alright….!! ha ha!!
Hi guest,
Your post previous to the one where you think a JOB is a BIZ:
Why should I keep silent, I am PROUD of the fact that:
- I have a job like you do..
- BUT, I have SOMETHING extra which you dont have!
So why should I keep silent.
As to your previous question: how much do I make, blah blah blah…..
- I told you…I am a beginner in this business so I DO NOT EXPECT to make
any money…..I told you, “if some one does conventional biz, you guys
argue “it takes a long time to break even” so WHY do you ask how much do
I make in less than one year just because I am in Amway biz..
Stick around friend and time will come when I can tell you how much I make.
I always answer questions in this blog…problem is people KEEP REPEATING them without bothering to READ first.
Cheer/Shekhar
It’s been 9 months Shekhar.
What is your revenue for the past 9 months?
If you do not have revenue, you don’t have a business.
You have a hobby.
Or you are a victim of a scam but won’t admit it.
Your revenue, Shekhar?
Your investment of time & money?
We’re waiting, Shekhar…
Hi guest,
You keep repeating the same questions….you enroll into college and want to graduate the same day – well – same year!!! if this is not true then why ask the same questions. Let me tell you something pal:
- I have ALREADY received checks from Amway for stuff I purchased
which I would never have got form your Walmart / Kmart.
- I am using the stuff so I am NOT losing money.
- EVEN IF I dont make money, consider:
– I buy stuff that I would have purchased from Walmart anyway.
– I get superior quality – I USE the stuff – is that a waste of money ?
– I have a chance to make money (which I am already doing) but not
in millions – YET……why do you keep repeating the same questions ?
Like it or not, admit it. You are jealous that you CANNOT do the stuff I do so you are plain and simple envious.
I am not saying you have a LOUSY job – so why should you say my business is a scam ???!!!
Cheers/Shekhar
We’re waiting, Shekhar…
Amway can also give you a pink slip in case you didn’t know. Amway is basically a comissioned sales job with a complicated pay plan. There is no secrutiy in Amway.
Check out this post http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/efusjon-is-efusjon-energy-club-a-pyramid-scam/
It describes a class action lawsuit against an energy drink MLM. Here’s how it describes the illegal pyramid scheme:
“…Essentially, participants are duped into believing they are buying into a legitimate business opportunity to sell a product but, in reality, the profits are derived almost solely from money advanced by new recruits inducted into the scheme. In efusjon’s case, the new recruits are under exorbitant pressure to… purchase the requisite amount of product for personal use, not for resale… the sole way to make money is for the Executive Associates to continually recruit new distributors who are also willing to buy and self-consume…”
Personal use… self-consume… sounds familiar…
Shekhar? Are you there? We’re waiting for those sales numbers, Shekhar…
Hello there guest,
You make me repeat the same things again and again….I told you that YOUR JOB is a pyramid (so is mine). first find out for yourself the difference between “position based income” and performance based income.
If you wish to listen to your friends – who by the way drive their same old Toyota Corolla, live hand to mouth, you will remain the same…..simple thing right. Exactly. Beats me why this simple thing does not permeate some peoples’ brains. Why should there be pressure to consume….? I consume EXACTLY what I want. No one pressurises me to “BUY” stuff….it is people like you who are spreading such rumours…..or possibley some bad apples giving a bad name to the biz.
Pal, if this biz is a scam, if it is a “Ponzi” scheme, if it s a “Pyramid” do you honestly think this company would have survived 50 years ? WHY should I check some stupid link you send me ? Why DONT YOU check resources like FORBES magazine, INTERNET RETAILER magazine, TIME magazine, comscore.com ?
First do this and THEN send me some stupid links ? or else, have the guts to say that FORBES is a Scam, have the guts to say that TIME magazine is a scam etc etc.
Cheers/Shekhar
Shekhar:
You have joined Amway 9 months ago but are too ashamed to say what your revenue is. So one must assume you have sold nothing. Zero. Nada. You have wasted countless hours and continue to do so. you have alienated friends and family by becoming an annoying and unsuccessful sales drone. If you had applied the same energy toward a part time job at Wal Mart you would be $5000 better off than you are now.
Why has the company survived for 50 years? Because there are lots of delusional people. You are the poster child.
Since we now know that you have zero revenue other than your own purchases, why don’t you tell us how much you’ve spent, total, on your Amway business in your first 9 months? Can you do that?
A job is not a pyramid. A job has an organizational hierarchy. Amway is compared to a pyramid because the upline makes money both direclty and indirectly from their downline. Your ability to make more than your sponsor doesn’t mean that Amway is not a pyramid. Even if you can make more than your sponsor, you will nevermake more than the old timer diamonds.
The majorityof people make nothing in Amway. IBOs who buy tools nearly guarantee that that they will lose money. The compensation plan ensures that. I have never seen an IBO actually back up their claims of actually making a profit.
Joecool wrote “The majorityof people make nothing in Amway. IBOs who buy tools nearly guarantee that that they will lose money. The compensation plan ensures that. I have never seen an IBO actually back up their claims of actually making a profit.”
Our friend Shekhar is a living example. It’s amazing how he parrots the Amway sales spiel at the same time he’s too embarrassed to talk revenue or expenses.
Joecool you make a good point about the pyramid structure. A job represents an opportunity to sell your labor for $$$. Honest pay for honest work. A pyramid represents the dream of money for nothing and your chicks for free. I guess that’s what these IBOs like Shekky are really defending… the idea that it’s possible to sit on a beach while money pours in from other poor schmucks buying useless tools and filling their garages with Amway crap.
Too bad they’re the schmucks.
Makes you wonder… Can anyone make money with Amway, Quixtar, Multi-level Marketing, MLM, network marketing or any other of these so called passive moneymaking and wealth-building business formats?
Another thing with a job, Most people apply for a job and agree to a wage or salary and they receive it in exchange for labor performed. In Amway, they attract people with promies of wealth and an easy life but the reality for most IBOs is a loss.
In Amway, it is possible to make money but not likely. However, if you make money, it will almost always be at the expense of your downline. The compensation plan is formatted that way..
Hi Joecool / guest,
How can you write a statment Joecool “I have never seen an IBO actually back up their claims of actually making a profit.” You know, you DONT want to see one. If you see one you will say “Oh he is an exception”. I KNOW 19 year olds who are making 80,000 a year!!! But you simply CANNOT hear this your senses are BLOCKED for such kind of happenings because all you want to do is badmouth Amway.
Another thing guys, your statement that “However, if you make money, it will almost always be at the expense of your downline” is so very UNTRUE and MISGUIDING that people really BELIEVE that they are true and hence shy away from superb opportunity.
Example:
You need a toothpaste.
You go to Walmar – pick up a toothpaste, do you go to the counter and just before paying yell at the top of your head “HEY WAIT, TELL ME WHO IS MAKING MONEY HERE. IF YOU ARE MAKING MONEY I WILL NOT PAY…YOU ARE MAKING MONEY AT MY EXPENSE”!!!! Guys tell me do you do this ????
But you happily PAY SAM WALTON’s descendents the profit they are charging on each commodity.
WHAT IS THE REALITY – did you ever ask yourself this or did you try to find out ????
Reality is that, you buy stuff anyway whether from Walmart or Amway. You buy stuff to use for yourself. For buying this stuff, Walmart DOES NOT pay you…Amway pays YOU…yes you, NOT your Upline…NOT your downline….you!!!!!
Then, because your upline has contributed to generating volume, the company pays you some small percentage which grows with time…… IS THIS WRONG you dumbheads ???? (not you personally – so dont take me personal)
Do you KNOW that when you buy a NIKE pair of shoes, your UPLINE Tiger Woods is making money because he contributed to generating the volume ?????
When people like me understand this concept, we KNOW what is a SCAM and what is not.
People like you (dont take me personal again) are so very VICIOUS (yes guys vicious), that they say “If I dont make money and remain poor, FINE but I DO NOT WHAT YOU to make money”. such people are and will remain poor. People in Amway make money and change their lives for the better – eventually.
I gave you SO MANY examples:
- Is FORBES a scam ?
- Is Time magazine a scam ?
- if Tmobile is partnering with Amway, is Tmobile a scam ?
- if Visa is partnering with Amway, is Tmobile a scam ?
- if Barnes and Noble is partnering with Amway, is Tmobile a scam ?
- if a NASA scientist has given up HIS job and made millions in Amway, is HE a scam ?
- Are all those Doctors, Engineers, Laywers, Software professionals, FINANCIAL CONSULANTS who are raking in money in Amway, are THEY a scam ?
Why YOUR friends have not made any money – let me tell you WHY !!!
They must be people like you – so many others like you who :
- Do not like to WORK…and literally SLEEP during office hours,
- Portray as if the world runs because of you.
- You want to join Amway thinking “OK now I do not need to work” and become a MILLIONNAIRE the SAME DAY!!! – Amway never claims this, so when reality hits, when you realize that there is a huge work involved, you guys RUN AWAY and BADMOUTH Amway.
Guys it is futile reasoning with you ! Stay where you are guys…..stay where you are!
AT LEAST I AM HAVING A CHANCE…you DONT!!! As a result you are so jealous that you keep badmouthing this wonderful opportunity.
Shekhar:
Give it up.
You’ve worked at for 9 months and have ZERO revenue.
My 6 year old daughter’s lemonade stand outperforms your “wonderful opportunity.”
Hi guest,
Yeah right….may I say that your 6 year old has more entrepreneurship than yourself…..you are BOUND to your 9 to 5. Stay there and enjoy working at 65. Right now age is probably on your side so it is the hot blood talking….I was EXACTLY the same as you…..life teaches different with time. Your badmouthing may have some adverse effect on many but if my reasoning has a positive effect on ONE so that he becomes financially independent without affecting his present job, then I WILL HAVE WON and you my friend would have lost….so there.
Shekhar writes that “if my reasoning has a positive effect on ONE so that he becomes financially independent without affecting his present job, then I WILL HAVE WON…”
I think your words are having a very positive effect.. People who are eager to invest their time and money for a year and have zero revenue, like you, will be eager to join Amway.
People of normal intelligence will listen to your lack of success and run away from this depressing scam.
I say that people who succeed in Amway do it at other’s expense. The compensation plan proves it. In a 6-4-2 plan, there are 79 IBOs. 48 of them are at 100 PV. These IBOs will earn about $10 from Amway and perhaps a few bucks from selling items. If they are on the “system”, they will be shelling out about $150 to $200 a month on average for standing order, voicemail, functions, gas money, etc.
The layer above 100 PV are the people at 300 PV. In 6-4-2 there are 24 of them. These nice folks will make about $36 a month from Amway with the same expenses as the 100 PV folks.
So that’s 72 out of 79 people losinbg serious money month after month.
The first layer, or the folks who are the “6″ will make a little for break even and the one guy on the top will make a profit.
A diamond consists of 6 at least of these groups. As you have more platinums, you have more people losing money, if they are on the system.
Joecool / guest,
This is fun……guys. Joecool and guest, basic basic pricnciple of ANY BUSINESS:
First PROFIT has to be made. Companies like Walmart and other retailers are not here for CHARITY. Knowing this well, all you guys go OUT OF YOUR WAY to pay them the profit that they demand – and dont ask questions…..
When a company comes by and says “you generate volume” I will share the profit with you…..you guys say “WHAT! are you nuts….we DONT WANT any of your money”.
You guys will never understand the FACTS as they are…BLACK and WHITE…..HOW can one generate the volume ? by introducing your friends and family into this opportunty….but does this mean you TAKE their money ? How can people be so childish ??? I gave an example earlier (but went above the heads of these fine gentlemen)….You generate volume in Walmart etc and WHO makes money ? likes of Tiger Woods (a fine player and a gent mind you). Not just that, you guys tell your friends “go to Walmar – there is a deal going on there”…do you seriously think you are not generating volume for others ???
How many examples do you want before it sinks in ?
Your friend A: needs to buy toothbrush…..what difference if he buys from Walmart of from a shop in Timbucktoo ??? what is the DIFFERENCE ?
So why ask the question “tell me who is making money…..only then will I pay for this toothpaste” !!!!
When you understand this SIMPLE fact, you will realize why there are people from ALL WALKS of life who now realize how the money is made….NOT from my own friends/family/downline/upline but from the profit sharing with the company.
I need not defend Amway, for defending an 8 billion dollar company you will need a team of lawyers.
Lastly, dont you think that Grade-A companies like Barnes and Noble, Sears, American Airlines, Visa, All cell phone companies know SLIGHTLY better than you do ? They may not be as knowledgeable as you guys but have SOME SENSE ? Will they partner with Amway ?
And, guest, I had asked you if FORBES / TIME magazine was a scam ? you have not bothered to reply.
Cheers/Shekhhar
Since Amway has always fought against it’s own sleazy reputation, it seems that a common Amway tactic is to try to somehow associate itself with respectable brands. But the associations are always worded very vaguelly, like shkars, and seem to imply endorsement of Amway without outright saying it. Can anyone explain specifically what the relationships between the companies Shekar mentions and Amway? How have these companies endorsed Amway:
Barnes and Noble,
Sears,
American Airlines,
Visa,
FORBES
TIME magazine
IBM,
Microsoft,
DELL,
AT&T,
Dish Network
Tmobile
I don’t know but I suspect this is like trying to imply that GM, McDonald’s & the Beatles all endorsed Charles Manson because he once ate a cheeseburger while sitting in a Chevy with the Beatles on the radio.
Shekhar would ask: Could GM, McDonald’s & the Beatles all be wrong?
Hi Victim,
Now I know why you call yourself a “Victim” – it is quite evident.
If you did not understand my question, then I can elaborate it further…..but do not give stupid examples as Charles Manson…..I will tell YOU about the companies that I have mentioned.
Barnes and Noble, Tmobile, Dell, Dish, Ace Hardware, Sears, AA – have PARTNERED with Amway…..do you understand now ?????? Do you think these companies will “partner” with Ponzi schemes ? do you think they do not have lawyers to check a company out ? Do you think they will partner with a Scam ????
Tmobile writes off 12% of your MONTHLY bill “VICTIM”…..sprint/nextel write off 18%…..that is savings to us NOT TO YOU because you experience JOY and GLORY upon being a “VICTIM”.
Forbes has featured AMWAY and have called the owner of Amway a “REVOLUTIONAY MILLIONNAIRE” …….”victim”…..
If only you bothered to find out instead of wallowing in your “victimization”.
Time has given the back cover to Amway….try asking a SCAM company to have the back cover VICTIM!!!!!
Ha Ha.
Cheers/Shekahr
The difference between Amway and WalMart? Walmart is way cheaper for similar or same products on average.
If Satinique shampoo costs $9.00 for 10 ounces and I can get a similar shampoo from WalMart for $2.49, who care if I get a few more pennies from Amway to refer family and friend.s
Shekhar:
I could detect that you had a rare potential from your first comment – that you are a baby eagle surrounded by turkeys. Do not listen to these brainwashed infidels. They do not have the millionaire mindset like you and I! It’s sad but they have lost the ability to believe in opportunities too good to be true. But we Believe!
I would like to invite you to join one of my Billionaire-in-Training groups and to introduce you to the best mlm multilevel network marketing moneymaker ever conceived. Learn about it here:
Introduction to BELIEVE. Greatest Opportunity EVER!
Joecool, you are invited, too. We sell Believe shampoo – which is better than Satinique – for $1.99 as opposed to $9 Amway or WalMart for $2.49. And yet it nets our distributors $2.50 in profit. That’s the magic of Believe!
See you on the veranda!
Richard Quick, Esq.
FranWorst.com
How do you mak a net profit of $2.50 on a bottle of shampoo that sells for $1.99?
Does Richard Quick, Esq. still use the same law firm? — That is, the esteemed firm of Quick, Cheatham, and Hyde? I understand they are doing really well these days and have reduced their fees from $300 to $200 per hour because of the increase in business. Did this increase come about because they are now representing both franchisors and franchisees in a depressed market?
http://thegreatfranchisingrobbery.blogspot.com
Joe Cool writes How do you mak a net profit of $2.50 on a bottle of shampoo that sells for $1.99?
Volume, Joe. And cutting out the wasteful retailer/distributor/middleman and enabling our billionaire-in-training partners to sell direct to loved ones, coworkers and invalid neighbors. And many other success secrets you’ll learn from our program when you’re ready to leave your poverty, reason and logic behind and… Believe.
You didn’t watch the video, did you, Joe? Now that’s not cool.
Carol Cross writes: Does Richard Quick, Esq. still use the same law firm?
I am founding partner of the firm Quick, Duhk & Hyde. Yes, we have reduced our hourly rate during these tough economic times. We have also reduced the number of minutes in a billable hour to 37.
See you on the veranda!
Richard Quick, Esq.
http://www.franworst.com
I don’t need to watch the video. If you claim you are getting $2.50 “net” profit for selling a product that costs $1.99, then I call BS on you. Your supplier would be taking a loss for each bottle of shampoo that you sell.
Your “calling BS” on me might be upsetting if I weren’t gazing off the deck of my yacht as the sun sets on the coast of Nungwi, the island jewel just off the coast of Zanzibar, Tanzania. A bikinied twin types these words as her nubile sister fixes me a Mis-Taki, an exotic drink made from the fruits of endangered plants.
As a BELIEVE distributor, Shekhar may one day enjoy this view on deck with me. Yet Joecool won’t even watch the video. Unfortunate for Joe. And his family.
Joecool, you are a prisoner of rationality, logic and common sense. Free yourself from those shackles and… Believe.
See you on the veranda,
Billionaire Richard Quick, Esq.
Author, What is Success?
Guys,
Richard (billionaire) Quick, thanks for your offer to check out believe.
We believe firmly and loyally in Amway. Amway is the best opportunity ever. It is NOT a get rich quick scheme and pays for hard work.
We are getting sidetracked from Amway in this post.
Richard (billionaire) Quick, all the very best to you – but if you know what is best, it is Amwayglobal. No one else.
Cheers/shekhar
I’m sitting in the Bahamas sipping a cool one. Everytime I write blog entries, the cash rolls in.
There are many paths to wealth, but Amway hasn’t been one since the 1970s (Yes, Shekhar, that was me you quoted in your Amway convention story.) Those who followed my links from here discovered QuickCo’s many paths to wealth, including such franchises as iSTOLE It: eBay auctions, BUDGET BRIDES: Love 4 Less!, Enviro-Ad product placement (formerly Mr. Litterbug), and STARBUSKJ Cofe ‘N’ ROP. We welcome the future millionaires who have adopted the “Believe & Succeed” mentality and abandoned the everyday pragmatism, common sense and so-called “sound judgement” that restricts so many to the suffocating confines of “reality.”
Do not criticize nor pity joecool. My tech department tells me he is posting not from the Bahamas but from a small apartment in Terra Haute with the shades drawn and a pile of bills at his front door. And that is OK. Not every child grows up to be an astronaut… or a billionaire… or even financially solvent. And that is OK. For there to be us Yins, there must be Yangs.
The triplets are calling from the helipad on C Deck, so I must bid adieu.
See you on the veranda!
Millionaire Richard Quick, Esq.
Mr. Quick:
Blatant business solicitation is not allowed in the comment sections. Please consider this your first warning.
As a reminder, the topic is “Is Amway a Scam?”
Actually Mr. Quick, I sell shampoo for 50 cents a bottle. Because of my high volume, I get paid $7.50 for each bottle I sell. I am sitting on a beach in Hawaii with a laptop sipping a Corona while I tap out this message on my laptop.
I have no debts. Aloha!
Shekar said:
- Is FORBES a scam ?
No, but Forbes said Amway was a scam.
- Is Time magazine a scam ?
No, but they didn’t say Amway was a good opportunity.
- if Tmobile is partnering with Amway, is Tmobile a scam ?
Amway partnered with Enron and Worldcom. Enron and Worldcom were scams.
- if Visa is partnering with Amway, is Tmobile a scam ?
If Enron and Worldcom were csmas and partnered with Amway, is AMway a scam?
- if a NASA scientist has given up HIS job and made millions in Amway, is HE a scam ?
He might not be a scam, but he probably made millions from his downline instead of from an employer.
- Are all those Doctors, Engineers, Laywers, Software professionals, FINANCIAL CONSULANTS who are raking in money in Amway, are THEY a scam
They may not be a scam, but they could make more money in their professions than from Amway.
Joecool,
Finally you have responded to my questions – and I can only praise your negative mindset and utter hatred for something which is quite simple. All your statement are blatant lies calculated to misguide the general public.
You say Forbes has saie “Amway was a scam”. Please check Forbes issue of October 18, 2009, pages: 182 – it has called the owner of Amway Richard DeVos as a “Revolutionary Billionaire” with the likes of Mark Zuckerberg and Steve Jobs (know who they are PAL ?????? Do you call this “Forbes has said Amway was a scam”?????? Grow up.
NOW, TELL ME ONE REASON WHY YOU ARE HELL BENT ON TELLING / SPREADING LIES ????
You say Time magazine did’t say Amway was a good opportunity.
I NEVER said Time said that. What did I say ? Will a magazine like TIME give the back cover to a SCAM ???????
Tmobile incident – I have no inclination to find out if Amway partnered with Enrom and Worldcom (please send me proof like I did about Forbes). But admit that you purchased from Circuit City right ? now that has gone bankrupt – does that make you associating with Bankrupt companies ??????
NASA scientist episode.
People like you never want to admit that you other people like Tiger Woods, all famous film stars, Radio Hosts who are SELLING you stuff are making money from YOU!!!!! So the question of “making money from downline” is an ALLTIME LIE calculated to misguide other people and make them stupid. Do you go to Walmart and ask them “Tell me who is making before I pay you ?????” they why do you ask ONLY in the case of Amway ? Because you DO NOT understand the concept and it is good that we are not having to associate with people like you. We ARE finding intelligent people PAL!!
You say Doctors, engineers, etc make more money in their profession!!! Good for you. Please stay where you are. DO NOT go after Amway – you may find yourself richer than your wildest dreams – and ofcourse YOU DO NOT want that now, do you ?????
Cheers/Shekhar
Joecool,
In my excitement that people like you have NO CLUE what Amway is all about, I have made some spelling mistakes in my earlier post – apologies.
Thing is, you just cannot say “Amway is a scam”. Prove it. I will prove it to you that it is the best opportunity ever and that people hate Amway for NO REASON. Just because SOMEONE ELSE hates it, they do too….When people like you find out that there is hard work involved, you cry foul and say negative things about Amway.
You might wonder why a person like me is literally wasting time with you. My biggest grouse is that you guys are giving a GOOD opportunity a bad name without any rhyme or reason and spreading rumors. Ask yourself:
Will you take advise from a person who:
- has failed (not just in amway, in any/all areas of life).
- has succeeded in SOME area but is NOT willing to share with you
his secret of success.
OR
from a person who:
- has succeeded in what he does and is WILLING to teach you how to succeed.
Read some good books pal, grow up. If not, please do not badmouth Amway.
Cheers/Shekhar
Guys,
I am in the mood to back-bash today – grrrr – so beware!!! ha ha.
I completely forgot to respond to one “Victim” (is it any wonder why he calls himself that…he will ALWAYS remain a victim, of his job, of his boss, of his family, of his fincances – sorry folks, lets take a vacation after 2 years) who asked this “Question” HOW have companies like Barnes and Noble, At&T, Tmobile, Dell etc endorsed Amway”.
Simple – my dear Watson.
Do you think that these companies have a team of lawyers who will check out ALL THE FACTS about ANY company they associate with ???? Or do you think their lawyers are stupid and not as intelligent as you ???????? Answer me please.
When these fine companies partner with Amway is it NOT endorsing ? otherwise why partner ? One more time – hope this sinks in at least now – else, PLEASE STOP your foulmouthing Amway….OK ? – When I purchase goods from these fine manufacturers, they PAY me good money !!! You may NOT want money when you buy at Walmart – but I most certainly do!!! Tmobile gives me a clean 12% discount EACH MONTH – kapisch????
So please do not try to TELL LIES again ok and misguide the fine public.
cheers/Shekhar
I searched Forbes for stories on Amway. Here’s some of what I found:
“The rebranding strategy doesn’t always work. In 1999, multilevel marketer Amway changed its name to Quixtar in North America. In doing so, Amway hoped to tap into the e-commerce boom with a tech-y sounding name. It also tried to distance itself from the shady associations that dogged the company.” “Companies Seek A Fresh Start With New Names” Forbes 08.20.09
“Roger Lareau, a Michigan alarm company employee, says his wife has rung up $20,000 in debt buying Team sales tools and Amway products… Their marriage has fallen apart as a result.” “Climb to the Top” Forbes 07.17.08
“Woodward quickly realized how important sales tools are to multilevel marketers. Tools encourage recruits to reject doubters and, if money fails to materialize, to blame themselves and keep trying. Tools can themselves be a gold mine. That was a lesson Woodward learned from Dexter Yager, a former beer salesman and Amway distributor who set up a highly successful sales tools business.” “Climb to the Top” Forbes 07.17.08
“…a report Amway produced for a top distributor indicating that a mere 3.4% of its U.S. products are sold to unaffiliated users.” “Climb to the Top” Forbes 07.17.08
“A U.S. District Court in Cincinatti announced Tuesday that Procter & Gamble … had won a jury award of $19.25 million… in a civil lawsuit filed against four former Amway distributors accused of spreading false rumors linking the company to Satanism to advance their own business…. Amway distributors allegedly revived the rumors in 1995, using a voice-mail system to tell thousands of customers that Procter & Gamble profits went to support Satanic cults. Procter & Gamble’s suit was based on the Lanham Act, which prohibits unfair competition and false advertising.” “The Devil Didn’t Make Them Do It” Forbes 03.22.07
The references to DeVos alluded to by Shekhar were not endorsements, but mere statements of the wealth he accumulated from deluded individuals like Shekhar. Just because the people at the top make billions doesn’t mean the peasants will get more than scraps of bread.
I’m sure if you dig deep enough you’ll find some reference in a puff Forbes piece that says Amway (and Meleleuca, Mary Kay, and other cults for suckers) is legit. Why? Because Forbes, like all biz mags, survives on advertising… they are, after all, a capitalist tool.
Hi Victim,
My friend, you are doing the same mistake that many other people who think they are smart and know better – basically know-all types:
- YOU HAVE SEARCHED THE WEB – you have NOT conducted RESEARCH.
For researching something you need to go to authentic sites.
Example: I put up a website and say that “xxx cheated me of 100K US Dollars”.
then you google “xxx” the name of the person – what will you find ????
Google is a search engine and not a RESEARCH engine.
It is like a toilet bulletin board.
Had I not had 100% conviction about a 8 Billion dollar company which disburses 42 cents for every US Dollar to it’s IBO’s I would have gone ahead and purchased the Fobres magazine you (MIS) Quoted.
By the way, check your facts, there is no issue dated 8.11.08 as you say!!!!
Then in the end you say, it is a “Capitalist tool” – my friend, that is the beauty of this greatest country on earth! I cannot buy something with “love” – I cannot go to your Walmart and say “I love Walmart” – to pay for my groceries!!!
Every one needs cash – money – dinero !!
If you want to be a socialist – FINE – but why badmouth AMWAY.
Guys, I keep repeating my questions, WHY DO YOU BADMOUTH AMWAY when you have NO CLUE what it is, how it works.
I gave you the page number AND the magazine edition as proof, please do not be vague when you quote a resource.
Now you are implying that the great Forbes is a scam (under same logic, EVERYTHING is a scam).
Come on “Victim” – do your own research – how can you feel proud to be called a VICTIM ? Why not strive to be a VICTOR ? Why be a COUPENEE instead of becoming a COUPONER????
BUT PLS DO NOT MISQUOTE AND MISGUIDE THE PUBLIC.
Cheers/Shekhar
What I always find interesting about folk like “victim” is their blatant selective quoting. They quote a Forbes article on Woodward – but neglect to mention Woodward was kicked out of Amway for bad business practices. They quote a figure on Amway’s percent of “outside customer” sales from that same article – but fail to mention Amway said the figure was wrong.
Here’s a nice video – Respected People, Respect Amway – it includes, amongst others, Rich Karlgaard, the published of Forbes, saying nice things about Amway. Readers may also want to reflect on This (incomplete) list of the many, many independent awards and recognitions Amway and Amway products have won around the world.
As I wrote back in April last year Amway is not a scam but you can still be scammed. “Victim” may have had one of those experiences. It’s a shame he doesn’t really how BIG Amway is, and how his experience may not be universal.
Ibofightback,
Yes, people like Victim celebrate being victims.
They search Google, find some bad things posted by some bad apple who found out that Amway is not a get rich quick scheme and then starts posting bad things about Amway…..the quote from Forbes is also fictitious.
Wonder why people STILL want to listen to the likes of Victim and THINK that Amway is not legit……what proof more guys ? 8 Billion Dollar Company located in Michigan for heavens sakes, not some underground outfit….
So quit trashing Amway VICTIM – if you wish to remain Victim – so be it.
Maybe I am wasting my breath and time here but like I said if ONE person benefits from this then I will be happy.
Cheers/Shekhar
ibofightback, A few points:
1) The context of my selective quoting was as a response to Shekhar’s inane claims that everyone from Microsoft to Time Magazine to Forbes to Sully Sullenberger are publicly endorsing Amway. He contends Forbes magazine loves Amway and asks “Is Forbes a scam?”
He points to a Forbes article as if it’s a validation of Amway at the IBO level. But the article is just about how rich DeVos has gotten off the trained monkeys like Shekhar. My admittedly one-sided quotes were to demonstrate that it’s a freaking magazine, not consumer reports or Ralph Nader’s newsletter. Forbes reports the good bad and ugly, but they do so in a way that will not lose Amway, Mary Kay, etc.as advertisers.
And in the end, who cares what a for-profit mag says about one of its advertisers?
Part of what gives Amway a bad name is deceptive BS arguments like this, when the Shekharites try to kid themselves that Amway can gain legitimacy by associating the name with respected brands.
2) The quoted articles are interesting in that they demonstrate that there have been and most likely are a lot of unethical scumbags within the upper ranks of Amway. Woodward came up thru and operated in conjunction with Amway for years. The PG libel was done by Amway distributors. You contend Amway is not a scam but its members might scam you. Since Amway is made up almost entirely of members, what’s the difference?
3) Why does Amway have a bad reputation? Because of people like Shekhar. He’s been trying to sell for a year and hasn’t made any money. No doubt he’s annoyed all the people who have turned him down – ex-friends, family co-workers. He keeps buying crap, singing the company song, and getting worse off financially. Every one on the outside can see how this works but him.
Amway can deny the report that most of the purchases are made to the Shekhars of the world and not unaffiliated users, but most people’s experience confirms that fact.
victim, are you an American? I’m not. I’ve met some American’s who are ***holes and crooks though. Does that make you an ***hole and a crook? Woodward was an Amway Executive Diamond – there are *thousands* of Amway Executive Diamonds – and there are millions of Amway business owners. One would have to be incredibly naive or a complete idiot to think there aren’t some dishonest or just plain stupid people in their somewhere.
As for endorsements, if any company *publicly* partners with another company then it is indeed an endorsement of that company. No company wants to publicly link itself with a disreputable firm. Virtually every week companies come out with press releases advertising their services and list Amway as one of their major clients – they’re using the fact they have Amway as a customer to advertise their own services! Do you really think they’d do that if Amway had the reputation you believe?
Several years ago the University of Westminster undertook a global survey of peoples attitude towards direct selling companies. Virtually all of the companies they included in the survey were MLMs, and Amway was one of them. Do you know what they found? People who had actual experience with a company, it’s reps. or it’s products had positive views of the industry. People with negative opinions tended to be people who had no direct experience but had based their opinions on hearsay. Sure there’s been people with bad experiences, but given the millions of people who have been involved with Amway over the years there’s remarkably few negative reports around.
I wonder were you fit in? You claim to be a “victim” yet also claim Shekhar is “buying crap” – I assume you’re referring to Amway products. Anyone who has actually used Amway products know they are far from “crap” – they’re some of the best in the world – I’ve already provided a link to many of the awards they have won.
So how much of what you are saying is your personal knowledge and experience, and how much is simply repeating what you’ve heard from others?
Shekhar claims that what the “great Forbes” (his words) has to say about Amway is gospel and defines the credibility of the organization and opportunity.
In my comment above, I gave direct quotes of Forbes’ reporting of Amway’s attempt to change its name due to its negative reputation, the tools scam, the P&G smear campaign, failed IBOs, and the claim that only 3% of purchases are made by real, unaffiliated customers.
You’re right Shekhar. People should judge Amway by what Forbes says about it. Here’s what Forbes says about Amway:
“One must turn outside the world of business – to religion and politics – to find people who work as hard for as little financial reward as most Amway people do.”
“It has made a very few people very rich while paying its foot soldiers more in inspiration than in cash.”
“Some Amway people do become affluent, even rich. But not many of them. ”
“The lion’s share of money earned by Amway distributors is pocketed by 2% of the sales force”
“As with any army, the recruits are expendable. Nearly half… will drop out in the course of the year.”
“The average foot soldier doesn’t make much money for his or her efforts.”
Source: “The Power of Positive Inspiration” Forbes Magazine – December 9, 1991 http://www.amquix.info/forbes_december_9_1991.html
Shekhar writes: “check your facts, there is no issue dated 8.11.08 as you say!!!!”
“‘Climb to the Top/ Emily Lambert and Klaus Kneale
Forbes Magazine dated August 11, 2008″
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0811/050.html
Is Forbes a scam? No. We better take their word for it: Amway makes a few richer and many, many poorer.
Shekhar:
You (and ibofightback) try to sound all logical and factual, but people considering joining Amway want to know one thing:
You joined Amway a year ago. How much $$$ have you made?
What are your sales? What have you spent in fees, products, tools, etc?
Simple questions. Answer them.
Victim,
I keep repeating myself – there is absolutely no mystery why you call yourself a “Victim”. I missed the article where you claim that I have made inane claims and just because you KNOW that I am telling the truth, you call me names. But this is a free country/world – everyone can have their opinions.
Why would the “Freaking” Forbes magazine – your words – worry about losing any company as an Advertiser ???? You think you know all about magazines and advertising. Do you think Forbes – which you say report good bad and ugly – should also say AT LEASE SOME GOOD things about the billionaire scamster Madoff – who knows he might advertise in their magazine – right ? if this your logic – dont you think it is SKEWED ? If Forbes has said something good about Amway – admit is VICTIM – they mean it.
In your logic if A = B and B = C then A = Z!!! (not A = C) This is the difference between intelligent people like you and idiots like me. What is the difference you say, since Amway is made up of members. In your job, everyone is an employee, if you cheat someone, then the company is cheating!!! it is scam!!! Come on!!!
OK, I made a mistake when I said there is no issue dated 8.11.08. (most likely I was looking for an issue dated 8th Novermber instead). Fine, but Woodward is the scamster and not Amway – example, if you work in a good caompany say ABC. Then you cheat someone of say large amount of money. Does that make YOU a scamster or the company ? Is this logic hard to understand ? Beats me!
People like you always have one mission – find something remotely negative about Amway and grab that to shout from rooftops that Amway is a scam. Slowly people are realizing that people like you are misguiding them. They are realizing that they are being misinformed and are embracing Amway. That is what is hurting people like you!
We have given you facts, examples – based on logic and truthful.
What is the harm in being a “member” ???? I keep repeating my example.
A celebrity endorses a product. They get paid billions of dollars. where is that money coming from ? Do you seriously think that that money is NOT going for your pocket and that the celebrity is NOT making money from his/her DOWNLINE ??? Are you freaking serious ????
When you buy stuff at Walmart/Costco, you guys dont bother to ask “who is making money ?” then WHY are you asking this question from Amway ???? Is this logical ? is this fair arguement ? The company shares profits from volume with the people, whereas in YOUR WORLD, the company pays the celebrity. Then you are fine. As long as SOMEONE YOU KNOW is not making money you are good. That is the reason you will remain where you are. This kind of thought process that “If I dont make money that is fine, I love to stay poor but YOU should not make money – that is more important” will keep you a VICTIM.
Remain a Victim, VICTIM!!
I choose not to.
Cheers/Shekhar
Shekhar:
Answer guest’s questions.
- not a victim (formerly victim)
Shekhar… We’re waiting for your logical, truthful, factual answer.
Yes, Shekhar. We’re waiting.
….. Silence …..
victim and “guest” – have you ever founded and started a business? If you did, had any of them returned 100% of your investment and started reaching profitability in only a year?
It’s a rare business that does – even when people are focussed full time on it.
Why do you think this business should be miraculously different?
I know the answer – you don’t think it should be miraculously different. You know it takes time to develop a profitable business – you’re not asking such a stupid, ignorant question because you’re stupid or ignorant – you’re asking it in the hope that people ignorant of what’s “normal” in business will read it and think badly of the Amway business. In reality having a business where you’re not spending hundreds or even thousands a month a year after starting is doing very well!
But I’m sure you knew that.
We’re still waiting, Shekhar…
Have you sold anything to anyone but yourself?
(This is getting embarrassing.)
I picked up eight new non-IBO customers last month alone. They’ve all expressed delight in the products, two of them have already ordered more things, and three of them have expressed interest in becoming IBOs, two primarily to get the products cheaper …. hmm ….. though …. I guess I should I tell them they can’t join, since anonymous idiots on the internet tell me that if they get the products direct, cheaper, than that would actually make them victims of a scam! Nobody wants to be scammed – clearly they’d be better off paying more and remaining as “real consumers” … right? :-/
The loss rates for near all Amway IBO’s is not mentioned in the above “positive”
posts. I was a high level leader in Amway for nearly a decade when I discovered massive fraud and deceptions.
See http://merchantsofdeception.com/mod/wordpress (global victim statements current through this year from multiple lines of sponsorship in many nations) or http://www.merchantsofdeception.com for reality based details.
The documentation seems to clearly support that results for for the vast majority of all IBO’s has been that they:
1) Lose money
2) Quit or lose more money
3) Get replaced be a new consumer investor who will also in turn most likely lose their money.
4). The cycle continues
Hi guest and Victim.
Looks like you guys are glued to this blog to learn more and more about Amway and are now cursing yourself for letting this opportunity pass by – like I did in previous 4 attempts. It is still not to late….ha ha.
Unlike you – we are extremely busy…..
By the way, I have answered you so many times, when you run out of arguments all you harp on is “how much $$$” – like I said, sorry but none of your business.
Does that answer you ? Like I said, I am in this biz. Whether you like it or not, whether you are jealous or not, whether you pity me or not, whether you admire me or not…who cares.
Cheers/Shekhar
Hi Eric,
So we have a new entrant in this debate….apparently he is SENIOR by 10 years and has “lost” money….ch…ch…ch……
Eric, if you read our previous posts, we do not browse the internet sites like the ones you suggested…internet is like a TOILET BULLETIN Board……
Cheers/Shekhar
Ibofightback,
We have a new “guest” Eric, He says he “lost money” ….so now it is convenient to blame Amway right ?
Guest and Victim (what apt names) want to listen to the likes of Eric, I told them,
one must listen to people who are successful in their field AS WELL AS they are WILLING to teach you how to succeed in the same field….but no, that does not make sense right. It is very convenient to take advise from your room partners who borrows your milk, does not pay rent on time, shares your car….OR they want to listen to the likes of Eric who on their own accord are a failure.
Cheers/Shekhar
That’s Eric Scheibeler, he’s been spamming pretty much everywhere trying to sell his “new” book which is actually an old book he’s been giving away for free for 5 years or something.
Eric – Amway critics always ask supporters to publish their “financials” – profit and loss statements etc. I’m curious why you never published yours in order to support your claims? Founders Emerald have an average Amway income of over $70,000/yr – what were you spending so much money on to be so unprofitable? What was your business structure? Curious minds would like to know …
I’m also curious how you managed to get all the way to Pearl and never learn how the Pearl bonus worked? I learned the basics, such as the fact it starts extremely small, in my first LOA training meeting before I’d even joined Amway – yet you say in your book that as a new Pearl you were shocked to see how small the bonus was! How could you have been shocked? Did you really know that little about the Amway compensation plan?
Just asking ….
Hi Ibofightback,
I see…..interesting.
What I have seen is that there are people who THINK that they can make more money (human beings are avaracious – never satisfied) if they start their OWN SYTESM!!!
Then when they realize that it is not easy and involves a lot of hard work and investment, they are forced to give it up….that is when they start yelling from roof tops “Amway is a scam and I have lost money”…..well…who asked them to spend money in the first place!!!
Cheers/Shekhar
I’m not going to waste a lot of time commenting here but I will say this. A lot of the reason people fail is because they do not have the training and mentorship from awesome coaches. There are 26 training systems in being associated with Amway. There is also being an IBO without the training systems. All I can comment on is the World Wide Dreambuilder training system and it’s an amazing system. With the right coaching and mentorship this can work. Is this easy? NO, I won’t lie about it. It’s not a get rich quick thing, it’s a work your ass off for 2-3 years and then you’ll get your financial independence. Does it cost money? YES. All business cost money however you don’t need a loan or a million dollars to buy into it. Will you loose your shirt? Not sure how you can since there is a 180 day money back on ANYTHING. Are you asked to commit to going to functions? Yeah. Think of it the exact same as going on a business trip to a conference or for training however MUCH cheaper. So really nothing to much different from your regular business just a hell of a lot cheaper with a much greater success rate IF you are willing to put some time in and be honest with yourself.
There is no real use in fighting with all the other people, this is my opinion this is what i’ve experienced so far in the business.
iboFightBack wrote: “… less than 1% go on to make any decent income…”
xpiditonoftruth wrote: “It’s not a get rich quick thing, it’s a work your ass off for 2-3 years and then you’ll get your financial independence. Does it cost money? YES.”
OK I think I get it. 99% of Amway ibos are the Shekhars of the world, who play entrepreneur by buying and consuming Amway stuff and pretending they have a business. There are 26 “training systems” with names like “World Wide Dreambuilder” that sell them “tools” and sales stuff for the 2-3 years before they run out of steam.
People who are really good at spinning the hype, like ibofb, keep them on the line by telling them that the 99%+ failure rate is “entirely fair and equitable because less than 1% put in the consistent work over time necessary.” Of course, the Shekars all are willing to put in the time and money – no one tells them they’ve got to have sales and lying talent. 1% of those are good enough liars to rise to the next level and recruit more Shekhars.
Read through his comments and anyone could see that Shekhar is nothing but an Amway donor. While ibofb is slick and unflappable as Jerry Falwell, Shekhar is transparent and contradicts himself. He has had NO sales after a year of work and is foolish enough to let that be known. I’m sure he has alienated all friends & family who will never buy from him. And he is really really bad at covering his lies (for instance he posts here and elsewhere that he joined Amway in March 2009 Yet he has an Amway blog dated December, 2007 http://cskulkarni.wordpress.com/)
xpiditonoftruth is not much further along on the financial front. He/she promises financial independence after 3-4 years, while posting whopping checks of as much as $279.00 for a month. Amazing!
It seems clear that from the masked man iboFightBack’s statements for 99% plus Amway is just a discount buying program for self-purchases and a business for fewer than 1%.
Another thing that always astounds me about many Amway critics is their incredible arrogance. “guest” here has unilaterally decided to label masses of people “failures” because they haven’t reached some arbitrary definition of “success” that “guest” gets to decide. If somebody joins Amway to get better pricing – and gets exactly that – by what right do you get to judge them a failure?
ibofightback / xpiditonoftruth,
Exactly!
My problem and biggest grouse is that these so-called self-gurus think all “Amway people” are being cheated which is so very far from truth. They also portray themselves as “know-all” and “smart” and trash “That Amway” at any given opportunity!
Mr “guest”, you call USD 279/- whopping – of course in a derogatory manner (Don’t know WHERE these guys get such figures)!! can you tell me do you get even that kind of money every month from Walmart/Costco ????
Like I said, whether you like it or not….whether you are jealous or not….whether……you get the point “guest”.
Cheers/Shekhar
ibofb you write ““guest” here has unilaterally decided to label masses of people “failures” because they haven’t reached some arbitrary definition of “success””
If Amway is a consumer buying club, then call it that. CostCo, Sam’s Club, BJs, DirectBuy members aren’t failures because they don’t join with the expectation of “financial freedom.”
You promote Amway as a route to financial freedom, yet you acknowledge that fewer than 1% even make any money much less reach financial freedom. If 99% started a business venture and didn’t achieve even profitability, then they are failures. Nothing arbitrary about that.
The IRS states that if an owner does not turn a profit in 3 years, it is not a business… it’s a hobby.
The thing that amazes me about many pro-Amway people is how they’ve created a mindset in which it’s ok to lie. Amway’s attacked as a biz opp & you say no, it’s a buying club. Restaurant owners with no customers don’t say they’re successful because they get to eat their own inventory for free.
And Shekhar claims he only joined Amway in March 2009 but started his Amway website in Dec. 2007. Shekhar has given credence to the old joke:
Q. How can you tell if an Amway salesman’s lying?
A. His lips are moving
That was just one check we got that month and I believe in my post I made that clear. There were other bonus checks we got as well.
Right now with just that one check it pays for my business’s operating costs plus profit. So just on that point alone, that one small cheque my operationsl costs are covered. So I ask the people who say they loose thousands, WHERE? Obviously if you are loosing thousands you are not following the 10 steps of core or listening to your mentors. Which comes down to the part I said about the training system. Where people fail is without the training and mentorship.
Again like you’ve seen in my blog it’s all MY OPINIONS and FACTS about what i’ve done.
xpiditonoftruth wrote “That was just one check we got that month and I believe in my post I made that clear. ”
That’s true, and I was wrong to lump you in with Shekhar. In fact, I respect the fact that you posted the modest check amounts on your blog. And I was wrong to say all Amway people are liars (just, imho, many. Maybe most). You are proof that some people have the fortitude and ethics to provide the reality along with the dreams and hype.
Unfortunately, xpiditonoftruth, you seem to be in the minority. Commenter Shekhar has been posting here since March about his best friend making $250K a year, 5 couples he knows making $5K+ per month and another friend giving her daughters new BMWs for their 16th birthdays. Yet he lies about how long he has been in and refuses to give any information about HIS sales or expenses. It seems clear that he is his only customer.
How do people lose thousands? It’s a good question. My guess is that people like Shekhar, who have none of the required sales ability or people skills, are so desperate to believe anyone can do it that they keep buying all the tools and programs that the guys who are making money put in front of them.
For skilled salespeople like ibofightback, they are easy marks. And people like ibofb openly acknowledge that fewer than 1% will ever make money, but can somehow justify selling to the 99% destined for failure. I am constantly amazed at their ability to justify their own acts of greed. It’s like selling to the retarded or emotionally vulnerable.
Amway and Enron/Worldcom partners?
Link: http://www.amquix.info/mickey_mouse_business.html
Most people who join Amway do not turn a profit. Most people who join Amway and buy the teaching materials and give an honest effort do not make a profit.
Many uplines are greedy and will tell you that teaching materials are the key to your success. There’s no bonafide evidence that teaching materials help you progress in Amway. That is the scam.
ibofightback wrote: “As for endorsements, if any company *publicly* partners with another company then it is indeed an endorsement of that company. No company wants to publicly link itself with a disreputable firm. ”
Go to http://www.amquix.info/mickey_mouse_business.html, scroll to the bottom to see the Enron/Amway partnership brochure.
Interesting article, too:
“Even before Amway changed its name to Quixtar, Amway had teamed up with Enron to market electricity…Amway even partnered with MCI/Worldcom to market telephone services. So despite all of Amway’s crack attorneys and due diligence, they still managed to team up with the two companies that were involved in the world’s largest business frauds. So what does that say about distributors’ claims about corporations doing their due diligence? It doesn’t say a whole lot.”
Enron. Worldcom. Amway. Partners in Integrity.
(Can’t wait to hear how they spin this one)
http://www.amquix.info/Amway_abuses.html
It really is sad that people have to lie, we are building our business on integrity and truths and if you want that you can check my blog out. I’m telling it like it is and boy do I have an uphill battle. Are we the minority? Maybe but we are doing the honest effort and will be successful.
One point about tools, nobody has ever told us we HAVE to buy tools. There is no mandatory amount you have to spend. What we buy is what we think will help us. Does our upline make suggestions, yes, but they don’t say YOU HAVE TO BUY THIS. I personally think some of the books and digital delivery we’ve purchased is very valuable. And to be honest a lot of it isn’t far off from what I buy at my regular day job. In fact a lot of the books are EXACTLY the same. Does that make the corporation I work for a bunch of tool scamers?
Anyway I highly encourage people who want to know the truth and a real honest opinion read my blog. I don’t care about traffic or what not, I only care about sharing the truth as I’ve seen it.
xpiditonoftruth wrote: “It really is sad that people have to lie”
I agree. I think that most Amway members’ acceptance of deception is why they’ve constantly got to defend the reputation. For years they would lie to people and say that it wasn’t an Amway presentation, then they’d find out it was. Than they tried to say Quixtar wasn’t Amway, but it was. They try to say all these big names endorse them, but they’re just purchasers. And they won’t be honest about the failure rates or earning rates.
Hey, if it’s really just a buying club and a feel-good entrepreneur’s group that you might make a few bucks off, or pay for your trip to the convention just say so… don’t be dropping references to friends earning $250K doing nothing like this tool Shekhar – and hide the fact you’ve sold nothing.
I wish you luck, xpiditonoftruth. As for Shekhar and IboFightBack, they seem to have left the building. Figures. Making Amway salesmen like them face the truth is like holding a cross up to a vampire.
guest,
Your presumptions and vicious nature is now started getting into my normally jovial nature. You have taken for granted and presumed as you have ALWAYS appeared to have done – especially where Amway is concerned – that we have “left the building”. I am truthful when I told you when I started the biz. But you went to some website and “PRESUMED” and intelligent that you think you are, you put 2 and 2 together – laughing at your ingenuity. I dont owe you any explanation. Like I said, our only endeavor is for people (who must be seeing this blog) the stupidity of people who THINK they know everything and trash Amway – thinking “Oh Yeah, I KNOW – Amway is an MLM, it is a pyramid…..all stupid asusmptions.
You need not tell us not to “Drop” references. We do not expect you to believe it – it is not meant for you – it is meant for people to see through your vicious nature – “if I dont make money, OK, but YOU should not make money”.
We are busy people and despite our busy schedule we try to spread cheer and the good word around.
Again, if you dont like Amway – GOOD because people like us do not want to work with you. Why do you make me repeat….stay where you are….just dont trash Amway OK ?
Cheers/Shekhar
Shekhar writes “we try to spread cheer and the good word around”
No, you spread dishonesty. You claim your best friend makes $250K thru Amway, that you know more than 5 couples that make about $2500 per month, that you know a woman who bought BMWs for her 16 yr old daughters. Yet you refuse to admit that you have worked since 2007 and have not made any money. Why not just be honest and say some, like you, work hard and don’t make a penny.
Shekhar writes: “I am truthful when I told you when I started the biz. But you went to some website and “PRESUMED” ”
In your comment above, March 6 2009 you wrote that you just joined Amway.
Yet this blog about your involvement with Amway is dated December, 2007. http://cskulkarni.wordpress.com/
Are you seriously saying this is not your blog, that someone else told the same story with the same misspellings and bad grammar and you both sign “Cheers/Shekhar”"
That’s not you? Seriously?
What is truly scary is how many IBOs will fiercely defend Amway, regardless of whether or not they have enjoyed any success. Secondarily, upline will teach you that you “need” the system to succeed, and success is credited to the system. They then turn around and tell you that any shortcoming is personal responsibility, even if that IBO did everything they were taught.
Shekhar, if you know of 5 people making 250,000, that’s great. I assume that kind of income is diamond level or higher. Many diamond businesses have 1000 or more people. That means these folks are helping nearly 5000 people to lose money so they can enjoy that success. Do the math. a handfull of successful people with the majority making $10 a month or less. Factor in the cost of functions, voicemail, website fees, standig order and the group suffers tremendous losses.
For those unfamiliar with Amway acronyms, IBO is short for “I’m Bending Over.”
guest, joecool, “Former victim”,
guest, like I said, I owe you no explanation. So be quiet.
I said you have “PRESUMED” and you have! People like you can never bring cheer and spread goodwill about anything. So be prepared to remain what / where you are.
Joecool, In your last post, you have mentioned “factor in functions, website fees” etc, you make it sound like it is thousands of dollars which it is not. I have not “suffered tremendous losses” as you call it. Whether you believe it or not I dont care.
Former victim – you will remain a victim – in life and in the job.
You guys will never understand the biz – and it is good because we want NOTHING to do with the likes of you – maybe Joecool would be a sensible candidate.
Joecool, you appear to be the coolest of the lot. Was my explanation above so difficult to undersand ? YOu said “That means these folks are helping nearly 5000 people to lose money so they can enjoy that success”. Joecool, whether the “downlines” buy from Amway or from Walmart WHAT is the difference ? So how can we say that the “uplines” are making money from us ??? Did I not explain that when you buy something at Walmart, SOMEONE is making money. Example, do you hear Talk radio ? the guys are selling everything from Freecreditreport, to Gotomymeeting etc…..are you not paying them when you buy one of these things ? Amwy will make sense when something as simple as this sinks in.
My objective was to make people realize the poison, vicious rumors and the way you trash something without even knowing fully what the heck it is all about.
I feel my arguments above will suffice. I have no more to say on this topic – and continue to waste time. Unlike you guys, I have a busy schedule and I was stealing time to visit this blog from time to time.
Hopefully some folks will see thru your false rumors and make a difference in their lives.
You guys have a job and so do I – but I have SOMETHING additional which you donot have and THAT folks is the basic difference.
Cheers and wishing you Happy Holidays.
Adios.
Shekhar
Shekhar,
I know that website fees, standing order and function might cost $150 a month or so. But these materials are often the main profit center for some upline. Yourupline not only gets a cut from your volume, but then they also make a significant income from the tools. Technically your sponsor is supposed to train you for free. And it certainly dispels the myth about upline not profiting until you succeed.
A diamond with say 1000 “active” downline might make $100,000 a month (1000 x 100) while earning significantly less from Amway. And the tools money is secretive. Have you seen a written tools contract? I bet not.
The difference between WalMart and Amway is that Walmart is has cheaper products and Walmart doesn’t tell you that you can be welthy by shoppwing at Walmart and Walmart doesn’t sell you materials to teach you how to shop at Walmart.
Why is it that when you do the research the average monthly income for 98 % of the personal IBO owners is 80.00 per month its only the top 2 % that is making more then 80.00 Per month per Nightline’s report a pretty creditable source like the was. Post! I have been pitch Amway by several different people and every time I ask someone to show me the proof there making money I get 100 different excuses why they will not. I am a show me type of person if ONE person that is telling me how great Amway is , could show me a pay check stub on there income made by selling Amway then watch out all aboard I will go 100 % all in!!!!! I will bust my but to make it happen but after 6 diffent people that have not shown me any results I am a little nervous about drinking the cool aid! Also Every time I ask question I am being negative and not chasing the dream…… Questions do not = Negative it’s just someone that wants the facts before they invest? Do most people do research and ask qu estions on a job interview????? Then why would you not ask question about something you’re putting you name and your family involved in like they would expect you to?
Jack,
They won;t show you because they aren;t making any money. Only a fraction of 1% make any serious money in Amway. What many IBOs will do is wave around a copy of a check from their upline. Even a check is not proof of success because of business expenses. There are diamonds losing their homes to foreclosure and a prominent diamond in bankruptcy proceedings as we speak. Do the math and you can see. The average diamond, according to Amway, earns $147,000. Take out taxes and medical insuarnce premiums for the family and that income is already cut in half. The factor in the fact that much of that $147,000 comes in the form of annual bonuses and you can see that a diamond might be living on less than $4000 a month.
It is only the secretive tools business income that allows diamonds to portray a wealthy lifestyle. But even at that it can be smoke and mirrors as even a half million dollar a year income cannot buy you mansions and jets in cash.
Where were all the Amway devotees when I was trying to unload my Curves. Hell, they would have bought Howie’s speechs, hook-line and sinker. Shekar, you could have had my club for next to nothing and with your expectations of not making money for up to five years, you are the perfect Curves franchisee.
OK guys. I am not back here to present my views (I have already done it above). So please do NOT respond to this post – I have no intention of joining the debate again. Just check these things out:
- What you call scam is sponsoring Miss USA 2010!.
- Best Buy has joined what YOU call a scam.
- check this:
http://moneywatch.bnet.com/career-advice/blog/other-8-hours/why-you-should-join-amway/919/?tag=content
Thank you for not joining what you call a scam and for HELPING others NOT to join. Lastly, thank you for trying your best to prove how I am involved in what you call a scam. But let me assure you, I am HAPPY with what you call a scam.
Cheers/Shekhar
“Best Buy has joined what YOU call a scam.”
What does that mean that Best Buy has joined Amway?
I saw something that says they are partnering with Amway and are partner stores.
Does that mean they are going to sell Amway products in Best Buy stores?
[...] To characterize the affiliate relationship as a “partnership” is misrepresentation at best. And when it comes to unashamed misrepresentation at its best, who can compete with AMWAY? [...]
New post on AMWAY Partner stores claims. Comments invited:
AMWAY Partner Store Claims Embarrass Their IBOs
Amway is a scam, and here’s why: Amway pays out as little money as they can get away with, so they support the higher level IBOs ripping off their downline via the tool scam.
As a result, about 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, while the top 1% make several TIMES more from their Amway tool scam than from the Amway products.
Read about it on my blog, I suggest you start here and forward the information to everyone you know, so they don’t get scammed.
Tex:
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by “tool scam”?
Brief overview perhaps?
Anon,
I already did on my original post, and you can view my site for additional details. If you’re still not sure, let me know when you can call a conference number that doesn’t cost you anything except normal long distance charges, and you can keep your number confidential.
Tex sounds like a broken record, or a stupid parrot.
The truth is usually simple. Those who post as Anonymous are usually stupid. LOL
And someone posting at Tex is always stupid?
Guys,
I had resolved not to waste time with you guys here….but cannot resist this last time.
All the negative posts here are without foundation (Amway should sue these guys here – one day they might) and ARE FALSE AND TOTAL LIES! I was surpirsed someone said Diamonds are earning 4000 after tax and that their houses are getting foreclosed. Do you know the truth or does that make you jealous so you want to be happy with ignorance ???? Why diamonds, even pins much much lower are making much more than you would like to know !!! STOP THE LIE!
HOW MUCH LIES AND VENOM guys ? How much ? You want to call me names? go ahead…..if that makes you happy. But STOP SPREADING LIES.
You think you are doing a service to people by badmouthing Amway???
People, get wise, do you want to listen to broke people spreading lies or think and make your own decision.
Cheers and ADIOS to this post.
IF YOU FIGHT WITH A PIG…..BOTH GET DIRTY….AND THE PIG LOVES IT!!!!!
Thank you Shekhar for the “Adios”.
Shekhar,
Amway knows EXACTLY who I am, and they can’t sue me (and win), because what I say is TRUE. Same with the LCKs. They sue/threaten to sue people who made very minor comments, but they won’t touch me and others who state facts, particularly ATS (Amway Tool Scam) facts. The fact that I have discussed the LCKs and their ATS for almost 5 YEARS, with ZERO complaint is virtual PROOF what I write is true.
The “Diamonds” losing their homes are no longer qualified Diamonds, they merely wear the pin they earned a long time ago. The ATS has propped them up every since, but you can’t keep it going when very few people are paying into it.
Yes, I am DEFINITELY doing a service by warning others about the ATS. That isn’t badmouthing, that is telling the truth.
You’re not wise, you are misguided. Stop your tapespeak and WAKE UP!!!
Tex says that “The fact that I have discussed the LCKs and their ATS for almost 5 YEARS, with ZERO complaint is virtual PROOF what I write is true.”
More likely it’s proof that no one takes Tex seriously and he isn’t a threat to them. I’m an outsider investigating this opportunity. When I asked him to explain what he meant by “tool scam” instead of answering he said go to his website (which is a confusing hodgepodge) and offered a personal conference call (bizarre). He seems more interested in trading barbs and insults than truly informing and warning.
Merchants of Deception guy was willing to put in some serious time writing a book, but I find the info so out of date it doesn’t seem that relevant.
On the other hand, Amway supporters like ibofightback represent the pro-Amway point of view rationally and point to informative, serious, factual websites that easily marginalize critics like Tex as crackpots.
More likely it’s proof that no one takes Tex seriously and he isn’t a threat to them. —- No, that isn’t likely at all. Why would the LCKs (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) sue someone making a comment about a painting in Ada being changed to replace the ex-wife with the currrent wife, and nothing is said when I call them LCKs? Or sue them over the details of the leave-behind information unique to a particular LOS?
I’m an outsider investigating this opportunity. When I asked him to explain what he meant by “tool scam” instead of answering he said go to his website (which is a confusing hodgepodge) and offered a personal conference call (bizarre). He seems more interested in trading barbs and insults than truly informing and warning. —- If I offered a personal conference call, how is that NOT “truly informing and warning?” Personalized service, and live, without the misunderstandings often found on forums/blogs. If the website is confusing to you, what better way to explain it than a simple telephone call?
Merchants of Deception guy was willing to put in some serious time writing a book, but I find the info so out of date it doesn’t seem that relevant. —- It may be older information, but until the tool prices and travel costs come down significantly, it is still applicable.
On the other hand, Amway supporters like ibofightback represent the pro-Amway point of view rationally and point to informative, serious, factual websites that easily marginalize critics like Tex as crackpots. —- ibofb dodges the REAL business questions, but he did succeed pulling the wool over YOUR eyes. I am neither pro or con, just the facts.
Tex writes “Why would the LCKs (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) sue someone making a comment about a painting in Ada being changed to replace the ex-wife with the currrent wife, and nothing is said when I call them LCKs?”
Tex, it’s kind of sad to see someone trying so hard to get an angry reaction from a company and the only reaction he gets is laughter and mockery. They don’t sue you because they are too busy laughing at you.
Why don’t you clearly explain the tool scam, how it works, right here so even outsiders can understand? Maybe with minimal acronyms, insider-speak and references to paintings. Then maybe you’ll earn an audience for your blog and even your conference calls. And you won’t be such an easy target for the their ridicule.
Tex, it’s kind of sad to see someone trying so hard to get an angry reaction from a company and the only reaction he gets is laughter and mockery. They don’t sue you because they are too busy laughing at you. —- Nice try, but this makes no sense. Why would they sue over a minor issue mentioned online, but be silent when a major issue is mentioned online? LOL
Why don’t you clearly explain the tool scam, how it works, right here so even outsiders can understand? Maybe with minimal acronyms, insider-speak and references to paintings. Then maybe you’ll earn an audience for your blog and even your conference calls. And you won’t be such an easy target for the their ridicule. —- Here’s a summary, feel free to ask questions, so I can expand on the requested area of confusion:
Amway is a scam, and here’s why: Amway pays out as little money as they can get away with, so they support the higher level IBOs ripping off their downline via the tool scam.
As a result, about 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, while the top 1% make several TIMES more from their Amway tool scam than from the Amway products.
Read about it on my blog, I suggest you start here: http://tiny.cc/D5oJh and forward the information to everyone you know, so they don’t get scammed.
If you, like me, don’t already know what the Amway “tool scam” is don’t bother with Tex’s site. He continues to refer to the Tool Scam but never explains or defines it. The random powerpoint slides seem intentionally designed to confuse and bore.
As far as I can tell, the tool scam involves selling screwdrivers, hammers and drills and not getting commissioned on them.
Take my word for it, Tex, you’re not getting sued because you actually make it easy for them to dismiss critics. You don’t even make IBOFBs Guide to Amway critics. But keep at it and maybe some day you’ll achieve your dream of being sued by Amway. Good luck.
Anon,
Even though I asked you to ask questions if anything didn’t make any sense, you didn’t do that. However, you did bring up some issues that point to obvious areas of lack of knowledge.
The ATS (Amway Tool Scam) is the hidden profits the various “tools” create, and include CDs, books, various meetings, web sites, voice mail, etc., that create several times more profit for Emeralds and above than Amway products do. It is important to note the upline promotes making money from the Amway products, but “forgets” to mention (aka – lies about the real business model) most of the profit comes from the above tools.
In addition, any information (tool) shown to a prospect MUST be Amway approved, so it isn’t reasonable for IBOs to reject the tools, nor is it reasonable for IBOs to use some tools and not others, the rules are far too complex to expect a new IBO to come to this conclusion.
To top it all off, most IBOs below Platinum, which makes up about 99% of all IBOs, operate at a net loss, thanks to the above described ATS.
They aren’t suing me because it is easy for them to dismiss me, they aren’t suing me because I am relating FACTS, and they don’t want to bring more attention to the ATS.
I don’t make ibofb’s list because he is running scared, and he doesn’t want to bring more attention to me.
Does this help?
Tex is a forum troll. He has posted in so many forums about his “tools scam”. He even went on a rampage posting his tools scam ad nauseum on blogs completely unrelated to Amway. Tex likes to repeat over and over the same things.
I actually agree with Tex that Amway is not a good opportunity for most because the compensation is not fair for most who are involved. While the tools may or may not be as significant or not, it is unnecessary for Tex to invade all of these blogs to encourage people to call him or to turn the focus of the dicussion to the “tools scam”.
Tex isn’t being sued because the parties involved are rolling on the floor laughing. In fact, they are probably happy that Tex dvierts and makes these blogs look stupid with his rantings so prospects don’t see the rational reasons why or why they shouldn’t get involed in Amway.
Tex:
Yes, that helps.
Thanks
Peter,
Tex is a forum troll. He has posted in so many forums about his “tools scam”. He even went on a rampage posting his tools scam ad nauseum on blogs completely unrelated to Amway. Tex likes to repeat over and over the same things. — Would you like some cheese with that whine? LOL
I actually agree with Tex that Amway is not a good opportunity for most because the compensation is not fair for most who are involved. While the tools may or may not be as significant or not, it is unnecessary for Tex to invade all of these blogs to encourage people to call him or to turn the focus of the dicussion to the “tools scam”. —- As I want the ATS (Amway Tool Scam) shut down, I will do whatever it takes to draw attention to it.
Tex isn’t being sued because the parties involved are rolling on the floor laughing. In fact, they are probably happy that Tex dvierts and makes these blogs look stupid with his rantings so prospects don’t see the rational reasons why or why they shouldn’t get involed in Amway. —-WRONG. If the LCKs are willing to sue over extremely minor issues posted online, they (the LCKs or Amway) would sue me in a heartbeat with the content on my site, if it were untrue. Prospects probably don’t understand all the details, they can ask if they want, or be scared off by the ATS facts.
Like the title of this thread reads. Tex and Amway are a scam and they are annoying.
How am I a scam? All I’m doing is telling the truth. The truth may be annoying to some, educational for others, but either way, the truth is the truth.
Tex:: You speak TRUTH and you are attacked. When you read the article in Google “History of Pyramid Schemes and MLM — Network Marketing” you see how the FTC legalized Amway’s scheme.
Just as the FTC has legalized the franchise schemes where churning and encroachment fill in the bottom of the pyramid, as needed. What is the difference between a legal and an illegal pyramid scheme — who knows? Maybe it all depends on whom you know!
Tex obviously doesn’t understand the difference between an opinion and the truth.
Paul,
What have I said that is opinion, and not truth?
Why do you constantly make unsupported charges?
Paul: Why don’t you tell us the difference beween opinion and the truth!
In 1979, the FTC legalized the Amway MLM scheme —this is a fact. Tex knows the original scheme is legal and harms lots of innocents and he provides FACTS concerning the ATS with the hope that people will smarten up.
There is a PhD, Dr. Taylor, who has tried to expose the MLM schemes for many years with TRUTH about MLM’s. Read his article Opportunity Lost: the Legacy of the Amway Ruling http://www.mlm.thetruth.com/ftc_blunder.htm
Carol,
Actually, I don’t consider any of the other posters as “attacking” me, they are mere pesky gnats!
In fact, it is well known the LCKs will sue over minor issues (lies), yet they are silent when I repeatedly call them the LYING COWARDLY “KINGPIN” tool scammers that they are, because:
1. They know they won’t win a lawsuit, as I am telling the truth, and
2. They don’t want to draw additional attention to their ATS (Amway Tool Scam).
Amway won’t sue for the same reason, even though I consider all of them LCKs as well.
Therefore, when I speak the truth, I am NOT attacked.
I don’t know enough about the franchise laws/law enforcement, so I won’t comment on that issue, I defer to you.
However, the FTC has never looked at the ATS. When the UK government did, they outlawed it. That’s the facts, so until/unless someone can bring other information to the discussion, the facts stand. Period.
Carol,
You’re right about the 1979 FTC ruling, the FTC did declare Amway’s MLM legal. However, the FTC did NOT include the ATS in their ruling. As noted above, the UK government DID look at the ATS, and declared it illegal.
I don’t agree with most of what Taylor says, he is a VERY confused man. There are much better sources of information than him.
I couldn’t get your link to work.
Almost everyone knows that upline profits from tools. How is it a scam if everyone knows about it and participates because they think they will benefit from it?
Where Tex is wrong is that the tools are a scam because they do not produce results. If mostly everyone went diamond, then these folks wouldn;’t mind paying $5 for a cd or $100 for FED or whatever function is going on.
Obviously, because everyone thinks that they will someday be upline and profit from tools —they see the carrot — and by the time they find out it is just an illusion, it is too late! — or something like that. Those on the top of the MLM’s know a lot about human nature and how to work it.
Just like franchising —-Once they are sucked in because there is no true disclosure required concerning performance of past and present participants in the MLM, it is to late. Been Had! So Sad! Courtesy of the FTC!
Paul,
Almost everyone knows that upline profits from tools. —- Do they know HOW MUCH? Do they realize the profit and other practices will keep them from having a net profit until they reach Platinum? Do they realize once they reach Platinum, they will have 75-150 IBOs in their downline, most of whom are operating at a net loss? I doubt it, Paul. THAT’S why the UK outlawed the ATS, Paul. Get a clue, Paul.
How is it a scam if everyone knows about it and participates because they think they will benefit from it? —- See above, Paul.
Where Tex is wrong is that the tools are a scam because they do not produce results. —- Of course the tools don’t produce results, except for the upline LCKs. They get rich off the tool scam. The reason the tools don’t work for the downline is not because the tool content is poor, the high prices cause tremendous churn, or turnover, as IBOs go broke and drop out, only to be replaced by other IBOs, who continue the process.
If mostly everyone went diamond, then these folks wouldn;’t mind paying $5 for a cd or $100 for FED or whatever function is going on. —- It is impossible for “everyone” to go diamond, as hundreds of new IBOs are needed for every new diamond. You aren’t thinking the process through, the point is the business model, because of the ATS, produces 99% of IBOs operating at a net loss, and 1% double dipping with the Amway and ATS profit. If all existing IBOs went diamond, the same ratio is maintained. It really isn’t difficult, complex math.
Carol,
Obviously, because everyone thinks that they will someday be upline and profit from tools —they see the carrot — and by the time they find out it is just an illusion, it is too late! — or something like that. Those on the top of the MLM’s know a lot about human nature and how to work it. —- Most IBOs don’t realize the upline makes most of their profit from the ATS, and most IBOs don’t realize they won’t operate at a net profit until they reach Platinum. If hey did, most would quit!
Just like franchising —-Once they are sucked in because there is no true disclosure required concerning performance of past and present participants in the MLM, it is to late. Been Had! So Sad! Courtesy of the FTC! —- I agree, and have contacted the FTC on several occasions to look at Amway again, and this time include the ATS, just like the UK did, and declared the ATS illegal. I believe there are 3 factors why the FTC hasn’t done this, in order of importance:
1. Incompetence
2. Bureaucracy
3. Political Influence
Tex:
You indicate that you don’t agree with Dr. John Taylor who with his Consumer Awareness Instuitute seems to be trying to combat “white collar crime” and expose the MLM’s.
He has excellent credentials and it appears that you share the same goals of warning about the general unprofitability of MLM’s for those on the bottom of the pyramid. Where are you in disagreement? What is your goal? What is his goal, in your opinion?
What do you think about his article “Despite the Amway Ruling, De Facto or Markiet Saturation is Very Real.” (I disagree strongly with his statement, i.e. In franchising, strict limits are placed on territories covered to protect against de factor saturation of the marketplace” because, of course, this is not true because churning and encroachment is encouraged under state and federal regulation and the adhesory franchise agreements.)
You indicate that you don’t agree with Dr. John Taylor who with his Consumer Awareness Instuitute seems to be trying to combat “white collar crime” and expose the MLM’s. —-> Taylor is putting the focus on the FTC declared LEGAL aspect of the Amway MLM and taking the focus off the unethical, immoral, and ILLEGAL aspect of the ATS (Amway Tool Scam). All he does is causes confusion, and the ATS marches on.
He has excellent credentials and it appears that you share the same goals of warning about the general unprofitability of MLM’s for those on the bottom of the pyramid. Where are you in disagreement? What is your goal? What is his goal, in your opinion? —-> He doesn’t know what he’s talking about, he is using his title to speak of which he doesn’t have a clue. I’ve BEEN an Amway IBO, I’ve SEEN what happens, so when others say similar things, I KNOW what they’re talking about. I don’t operate in Taylor’s world of theory and goal to make money off an opinion based entirely on an erroneous theory, not experience. You and Taylor have failed to separate the legitimate Amway product business from the ATS. Why should those “on the bottom of the pyramid” be making millions of dollars?
What do you think about his article “Despite the Amway Ruling, De Facto or Markiet Saturation is Very Real.” (I disagree strongly with his statement, i.e. In franchising, strict limits are placed on territories covered to protect against de factor saturation of the marketplace” because, of course, this is not true because churning and encroachment is encouraged under state and federal regulation and the adhesory franchise agreements.) —-> I didn’t read his article, he’s a waste of time. From the standpoint of Amway being saturated in the U.S., I agree, because it hasn’t grown in several years. However, this doesn’t mean new people aren’t being ripped off, because the ones who drop out after being ripped off by the ATS are replaced with new ones.
Tex sounds like a broken record parroting the same old story time and again.
John IBO,
The reason I sound like a broken record is because the ATS (Amway Tool Scam) run by the LCKs (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) has been ripping off IBOs using the same old techniques for several decades. The abuse hasn’t changed, why should the reporting of it change?
What makes you think you have the right to invade and take over people’s blogs saying the same thing over and over, post after post? Make your comment and leave it at that.
What makes you think you have the right to invade and tell me not to “take over” people’s blog saying the same thing over and over, post after post? Make your comment and leave it at that. LOL