IS AMWAY A SCAM?
January 6, 2009
Have you ever had a good friend or close relative join AMWAY (Mary Kay, Herbalife, Quixtar, Meleleuca, Shaklee, USANA, nuskin, or other mlm, multilevel or network marketing scheme) and suddenly become the annoying sales zombie from hell?
The question came from a comment left on the post IS AMWAY A GREAT BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY? thirstyfox claims that Amway/Quixtar is a cultlike scam that makes everyone annoyed with her deluded sister:
My sis was in it once, wasted all her time and in the end made little or nothing.
She got back into it recently against everyones advice. It’s like a cult that turns you against your family so you don’t listen to them. Now she has no time for family, just scamming strangers and wasting her time away with unfullfilled dreams.
The constant meetings are to keep you brainwashed. It’s all a scam and she knows it herself now as she tries to get others in “under her.” Hard to see her as a Christian anymore when she does this, and it’s sad to see all the time she loses when she could be raising her kids.
I’ll never understand how she could be so stupid. I asked her why she got in it last time and she said of course money. Then I asked her what she got out of it and she replied defensivly “I met a lot of very interesting people!” I think that about says it all and if it didn’t work for my sis it won’t work for anyone.
All the BS they tell you about how well this that and the other person did or is doing is all lies so they can get your money. 98% of all Quixtar products are sold ONLY to stupid Quixtar members themselves, yet they go around saying they own a business???
Don’t give them a second of your time.
What do you think? Does Multi-level “Network” Marketing consists of stupid, annoying members selling worthless stuff to other stupid, annoying members? Share your MLM story below.
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Amway doesn’t work. The process is complex because there are two businesses running. Amway is the first business. It doesn;t work efficiently because the products are too expensive and the products are not glamorous. The secondary business is where upline trick or bait and switch distributors into thinking they have the ultimate secret to succeeding in Amway. So the new distributor’s, not wanting to miss out on this information, subscribe to the “Amway College” and end up spending hundred if not thousands of dollars learning Amway. Eventually, they self discover what they saw early on. The Amway products are too expensive and they are not glamorous. Having spent a lot of money on Amway products and then a lot more money on Amway College, they now quit. Most slink away into disgust and shame, not wanting to discuss Amway unless recruited again. Some become advocates against Amway. In either case, Amway and the Amway teachers are the only ones who made money, not the distributors.
My daughter just recently became involved with Amway through a young man she’s dating. We keep telling her that it’s a waste of her time but she told us that she has researched it and really believes it is a great opportunity if a person is willing to put in a little extra effort. I wish I could get her to see that she’s going to regret being involved with Amway because I really hope it doesn’t take wasting a lot of money and time in order to learn this lesson.
Sherry, my advice would be to simply ask your daughter to keep track of her monthly expenses versus her income. Businesses exist to make a profit. If she is unable to profit, she is basically a customer of Amway and a customer of the people who sell tapes, books and seminar tickets.
Sherry,
I have researched Amway too. My best fried worked hard for 7 years and retired at the age of 38 whereas I am still struggling to make ends meet at 50.
Mr Stevens,
Consider the following:
1) This is a SECONDARY income. One need not stop working (till one has regular
income).
2) I know at least 5 couples who make 2680/- USD per month as secondary income.
3) The products are pricey ? Did you bother to verify/check ? Here is the real world:
Washing powder of 180 loads (ultra at Costco) costs USD 15/-
But gives only 32 loads (my wife gave these figure).
The Washing powder at Amway costs USD 18/- and gives 100 loads. Do your
math.
I was stupid….until now.
The thing is that the products are “minitaturized” or “concentrated” for ease of shipping.
Does anyone know the diffeence between EAU DE PARFUM and EAU DO COLOGNE ? which one is PRICEY ?
Here is a question:
Q – Why do you shop at Costco ?
Me – To save money.
Q – For how long ?
Me – for about 5 years.
Q – OK…so in which bank a/c have you saved the big bucks you saved ?
Me – Hey….I dont get paid cash…..!!
Q – See….this is the difference between Amway and others.
Is it legit ?
You bet!
Why do people about Amway ?
Sour grapes….In this business there are ONLY 2 things :
1) Success.
2) You Quit
There is NO FAILURE.
So stop cursing you guys….Sherry, your daughter is smart and if she works hard she will retire early…and will have hopefully better life than most of us.
Cheers
Shekhar:
Thanks for providing examples of Amway doublespeak, non sequiters and general BS. How can you say this stuff with a straight face? Click on the Amway ads above to see the nonsense these guys put forth.
- What bank do you deposit your savings from CostCo? I don’t have to, because the money I saved never LEFT my bank. What’s the point of paying more to get it back? I’d rather not pay it in the first place. Duh.
“In this business there are ONLY 2 things :
1) Success.
2) You Quit”
You forgot the third and fourth
3) You turn into a sleazeball after getting brainwashed by bigger sleazeballs and think you can make big bucks exploiting your social and family relationships when in actuality you’re just going to annoy everybody and make them cringe every time you open your lying sleazeball mouth.
4) You end up with a garage full of Amway detergent and shoe polish, no friends, and a big balance on your credit card.
Folks, do yourself a favor, buy your detergent at Costco and keep your friends, friends and family family – not customers.
Thanks “Not a Victim” – I genuinely appreciate your response.
I do not wish to turn this into a debate. But here is my take:
1. About savings in Costco – so you say it “stays in your bank”. Good.
I do not know about you, I STILL do not have enough savings in my bank
and am surviving from paycheck to paycheck.
2. About your 3rd point:
Sleazeball – Do you know even when Michael Jackson stages a show he
HAS to “Promote” it. Is he a “Sleazeball” ?
For NO APPARENT reason, people have shied away from Amway without
understanding the model ? What testimony would you like ?
That all top shots have aligned themseleves with Amway – Microsoft, IBN,
Reebok, Dish, AT&T….list goes on.
do you think you or I could approach Microsoft and say “Hey, I can do a superb
website for you – why don’t you sell your products on my website ?” – and Microsoft
will give you a Red Carpet ?
What will it take for you to know the “Credibility” – you just do NOT WANT to
understand – right ?
3. About your 4th.
I have not seen my wife happier in days – she has FOUND what she
was seeking all these days…..the best of the best.
My garage is neat and clean (yes).
Lying – can you please tell me WHAT, WHERE do you find a lie in my statements ?
Why should I lie ? I dont need to. Why do you PERCEIVE I am lying ? simple -
because you do NOT know how this works or you REFUSE to even
CONTEMPLATE it. Does this make me a LIER ? Appreciae if you can enlighten
me.
And my friends ? Take a look:
My friend had a toothache…..I just gave him my toothpaste….he was so
impressed (with a TOOTHPASTE for cryin’ out loud ?) that he searched
the entire retail scene for thie “Glister” – he could not find it. He joined.
Here is why I have joined:
a. This opportunity came by to me for the 5th time. Previous 4 times I was
cynical and REFUSED to entertain people who approached. Why ?
Because I was BRAINWASHED by people like you who DID NOT KNOW
the system.
b. My best friend takes home 250K US DOLLARS a year now. He worked hard for 6
years OUTSIDE his normal job.
If I had that money today, I would retire.
c. My friend, THERE IS NOTHING OUT THERE which can even SAY that it can
give me a decent second income.
d. What do I lose ? – NOTHING. ZILCH. NADA.
If and when I say to myself that “this is not for me” I am MOST WELCOME to
leave…..what WILL I HAVE lost ? nothing zilch nada. Because I GENUINELY
love those products. I am already getting value for my money ?
Does Amway pay ? you bet. My best friend is my testimony – you will need to find
yours.
Think. If you do NOT wish or REFUSE to entertain even a possibility of a seocnd job
or a seocnd income….I am positive you are rich and not like us who NEED the money.
In that case…please do not trash a system until you have seen/participated it.
Do you want to see it for yourself or do PHD using a “Search Engine”.
When people like yourself find their own TESTIMONY they will join.
Like I did when my best friend retired at 38.
Cheers
Mr Stevens / “Not a Victim”
ONE day when you find your best friend raking in millions you will have joined,
at that time – just give a thought to what I been saying all along ……
2 things:
1. I need to inform you that I do NOT SELL retial.
I only SELL a “concept”. If you like – fine – if you dont – well, good luck.
2. Apologies for the typos this not being an exam
Hope you become successful in whatever you do.
All the best.
Shekhar:
There are lots of ways to mislead, and AMWAY has brought it to an art form.
Dishonesty is ingrained in the Amway approach to communication. How do you lie? Let me point out a couple of examples.
CostCo Ruse: “What bank account to you deposit your savings from CostCo?” That’s a sales trick to prompt a negative response 100% of the time, because even if someone DOES save money from CostCo they do it by not paying more in the first place.
You will of course respond by going back to cost savings, etc., but the fact is Amway people cross the line from persuasion to trickery.
Two options Ruse: “In this business there are ONLY 2 things: 1) Success. 2) You Quit” Again, another fast talking sales trick. Pretend there are only two options. What about losing money, time and friends and then failing? I’d say that should be listed as 3, and will be most people’s experience.
Another ruse is exaggerating some tenuous affiliation with a big or respected company as being a wholehearted endorsement by that company.
Another ruse is the “I’ve got a friend who’s a millionaire” or “I’ve got a friend who makes $250K a month from Amway.” Of course you do. And of course your friend’s name must remain confidential.
Do they still teach that sometimes you might have to withhold the Amway name to get people to your presentations because of all those bad people telling lies. In essence, you have to lie to people for their own good?
You wrote “…even when Michael Jackson stages a show he HAS to “Promote” it. Is he a “Sleazeball” ?”
Is Michael Jackson a sleazeball? Are you serious? You use an accused child molester as your shining example? Hell yes, he’s a sleazeball. Trusting him to babysit your kids would be as foolish as lending an AMWAY salesman your ATM card!
Hi Not a Victim,
Well, again, appreciate your response.
You missed my point completely. Michael Jackson was just an example. He is a sleazeball granted. But it was just an example. How about (I dont care too much about Rock Stars) e.g. Miley Cyrus or Boss Springstein…..can they stage a show without promotion ? does this make them sleazeballs ? Get my point now ?
And, I keep repeating, “I dont sell a product” – is this not plain English ? So how can you keep calling “Amway Salesman” ?
I dont know about others, MY OWN fast friend from School makes 250K USD. Which I know is a fact. I do not wish to impose this on you nor do I expect you to believe me. You have to find your OWN friend who you trust who has struck gold in Amway – it is only then that you will join. Hopefully by then it wont be too late for you.
To your point, let us CONSIDER that all these are “ruses”. So why am I or people like me doing this ?
1. We (my wife and I) love these products.
2. No one including you can offer me an opportunity for a second income which I
desparately need.
3. I am living paycheck to paycheck. So what is WRONG in looking for an opportunity
when is STARING at me ?
What do I lose ?
- SOME friends who have been influenced by people like you. But who cares for them?
When I am in trouble will they come to help me ? Will they offer money to me ?
Will/can I ask them for money ? So to hell with them.
- I lose NOTHING ! Zilch.
Is it very hard to believe ?
Lastly, why am I “defending” this ? I am made that way. This is a personal bailout.
No governmental doles. The money is there for the making. It would be best if this
is shared and this business is the only one which celebrates sharing of the wealth.
Tell me one which is similar ?
Did I sell you something ? Did I ever insinuate that you should buy something from me ?
So why do you guys keep saying what you do ?
I am repeating myself – please DO NOT believe me. But then, to be fair, DO NOT also believe “heresay”. Also do not blame AMWAY until and unless you SEE it for yourself the business model. Not because your friend said it is bad or because a “Friend’s friend” curses it. If you to not like it – FINE…..and best of luck.
I do what I believe in and what I like – you do the same.
I am personally excited by this opportunity after studying the business model minutely. Does that make me a lier ? a sleazeball ? I have never told a lie. Never cheated anyone of a single dime.
To round up – here is an example:
I have my Amwaite friend (yes I call them friends) who, about 3 years back joined Amway. He approached his neighbors to join. ALL of them avoided him like plague. the neighbors were influenced by people like you – WITHOUT knowing fully about AMWAY. But my friend did not give up. Today he makes about 2680/- a month.
Now, one of his old neighbors worked with me. He also avoided my Amway friend 3 years ago. This colleague of mine – has lost his job (which is unfortunate in itself). I approached him – he did not have any other opening – so he joined. In one of our meetings he recognized my Amway friend who he had avoided long time back. He felt bad about it – but it was already late – he had lost his job and has no other income. If he would have had this SECOND ADDITIONAL income – by now he would have atleast sat out the recession successfully.
Cheers.
Yeah, reading over your comment again this strikes me as really, really sad:
“SOME friends who have been influenced by people like you. But who cares for them?
When I am in trouble will they come to help me ? Will they offer money to me ?
Will/can I ask them for money ? So to hell with them.”
Guess you don’t believe in the saying “He who has friends is rich indeed.”
I bet you will some day
Shekhar:
I take it by the way you talk about your friend that you haven’t made anything from this so far, correct?
How much have you spent, including products you and your wife use.
Be honest…
Hi Not a Victim,
Interesting responses. I like it. Pls bring on all your queries and I can assure you that I have LOGICAL explanation for those. Here are MY responses to the points you raise:
1. Friends.
I am turning 50 shortly. You do injustice to my intelligence when you quote “Who
have friends are rich indeed”. You think in my 50 years I have not had the
opportunity to UNDERSTAND this quote ?
Did I say I dont care about friends ? You missed the point completely again…..
You yourself have quoted it in your response. I meant “who cares of such friends
that wont offer me a second income, who will help me when I need it the most ?
Just for your information. I am blessed with some VERY CLOSE friends who do not
hold AMWAY against me – they have love for me rather than what people have
told them about AMWAY.
Nevertheless, to your point…..I have made some terrific AMWAY friends…..they not
only guide me in the business…but some are even helping out one of my friends
who have lost his job….our network is looking to place him……is this not friendship ?
Am I not rich friend-wise ? Does that make me “Friend-poor” ?
2. Here is the info you demand – it is the truth in all honesty – but since you are not
my friend (yet) you need not believe me…..you need to FIND a friend who is
doing what I do and THEN it will sink in for you:
I have just joined the business 2 weeks ago.
I have spent USD 318/- towards registration.
I have received products that is having my wife jumping with joy.
3. I plan to spend USD 250/- per month on buying stuff from MY OWN business
rather than spending it in Costco or Walmart.
I also plan to buy some additional prouducts which I have not used before.
One such thing is GLUCOSAMINE for my son who suffers from knee pains
randomly. Check out info on this product. My Doctor friends are prescribing this
to his patients!!!
So now you will say “See you will be buying stufff you never used before”.
Yes, but that is because I did not KNOW of this product. Instead I spent about
USD 200/- last year on Doctor visits.
- I have to work harder to overcome objections from cynics like you.
- Once people are convinced that this is the ONLY business that have producted
many many multi millionaires, they HAVE to join this business…there is no other
option available out there…..(unless you win a lotto but you can calculate
the permutation/combination of winning a lotto yourself).
- I am getting to know more and more products that are useful. Instead of using
one such product I was using a host of other ones – in a way I will be consolidating
my use to limited products.
Do you discern “dishonesty” in my response – now can YOU be honest as I have been.
Can I ask you in all honesty:
- WHAT exactly is that you do NOT like about AMWAY ?
- What exactly do you KNOW about AMWAY ?
- What is the EXACT reason that you take pity on folks like me (it is not warranted
though – let me tell you firmly).
May I expect a frank and an honest answer ?
Cheers
Hi Not a Victim,
Do yourself a favour:
Try to learn what Amway is all about (not from a search Engine – but from authentic sources). If you cant find them go to one of the meetings and learn the busines model. See how it works. Look at the products. Learn what is the exact difference between the products and what trash that is hawked in the market for the SAME price. See for yourself WHO is cheating WHO.
Credibility:
IBM, Microsoft, DELL, AT&T, Dish Network, Visa…..these are some of our partners.
Will such companies parter with a Company without checking its market standing ?
Why am I saying all this to you – once again – that is the way I am. One day you will see the light and understand if we ae wrong are is it you.
Join my friend before it is too late. Unless you are Bill Gates or Warren Buffet.
Hi – this is for someone who wrote in the blue box:
My sis was in it once, wasted all her time and in the end made little or nothing………
- Did you bother to find out what Amway is all about ?
- I know of a mother who slogged for a few years sacrificing her time for her kids.
Guess what ?
Her business blossomed so much that she gave up her job (she was the Director
of Nuclear Medicine in one of the leading hospitals).
- On the Sweet 16 of her kids she gave them a BMW each.
Do yourself a favour. Talk to your sister. Do NOT hold it against her that she is in her own business…Life is too short. Say I love you before it is too late.
I should know. I lost my own brother in 1996.
Cheers
Shekhar:
I was wrong about you. I see now that you are not a slick Amway salesman as I first thought, but are a new, excited recruit repeating the sales pitch and desperately wanting to believe.
As for my credibility, at this point I am more financially successful with Amway than you are. You are at -$318 in sales and I have reached breakeven by having incurred $0 in expenses, $0 in lost labor hours. 0 lost friends and having achieved $0 in sales.
Come to think of it, that makes me more financially successful at Amway than the vast majority of Amway salespeople… or any other MLM network marketing scheme. Plus, I have not alienated friends by turning my personal relationships into financial transactions. Whenever you think of family and friends as potential customers, there is going to be a problem. Unless you’re a girl scout.
Shekhar, groups like Amway prey on good but desperate people who are eager to believe. Believe me, you will be better off getting a part time job at WalMart or 7-Eleven. At least you don’t risk losing money for your time and effort.
Not a Victim, you might want to read Amway is not a scam but you can still be scammed. Your comments may be based in some legitimate experiences, but you’re very unfairly overgeneralizing.
Thanks ibofightback. I read the article and now I understand much better.
You are saying Amway is not a scam, it’s just a scammer’s tool. So if you you were scammed and you think it was Scamway, you are wrong because it was just dishonest people using a system and products that, for some reason, is well-suited for fraud.
On a practical level: Who cares? Since there’s no way for someone invited to an Amway presentation or pitch to know whether this is one of them evil Scamwayers or the Dudley DoRight Amway professionals, they would be smart to avoid it altogether. Get a job at WalMart selling the same crap. You’ll get a paycheck and not have to go to nauseating rah-rah meetings.
The article likens the “bad rap” given to Amway to sleazy used car salesmen. It says there’s nothing sinister about used cars, or the practice of selling them… there’s only a problem if the salespeople are unethical. We agree. So if there’s one used car lot with a widespread reputation for fraud, a used car lot with entire books written on their disreputable practices, one might do well to stay away… even if they’ve been fleecing customers for 50 years!
I’d argue that Amway is not more “well suited for fraud” than any other business. We’ve seen investment bankers running ponzi schemes. Today in my corner of the world I’ve been reading of online travel agents selling fake plane tickets.
If you find an Amway “car yard” well known for fraud, then by all means stay away. Indeed it might be worth noting that pretty much every single lawsuit involving Amway for the last 30 years, and all of the critical books, have involved the same group and it’s offshoots, so perhaps, at least in the past, that might be that car yard. What you seem to be advising is that if you find a dodgy car yard selling Toyota’s – don’t just avoid the car yard – avoid Toyota!
But by all means, do your due diligence. Read the self-published critical books (they couldn’t get a real publisher) but also read the books by what most would consider more credible sources, like heads of prestigious business schools. Check with the BBB to find there’s very few complaints. Read recent FTC reports that state there’s so few complaints about members of the DSA that they’re not worth covering in a new “business opportunity rule”. See what organisation like the UN, UNICEF, and the Chamber of Commerce think about the company and products. Check out all the other independent Awards and Recognitions they’ve received around the world. Then decide whether that’s more important to you or you prefer to put more weight on the self-published writings of someone with an agenda, talking about their limited experience in one corner of the Amway world a decade or three ago.
As always, your choice, but that choice says perhaps just as much, or more, about you than it does about the company.
Thanks IBOFIGHTBACK. It is time we explained to misinformed people about their misconceptions. I have been having interesting debate with “Not a Victim”.
I have some points for you “Not a Victim” – I was very busy and could not fine time to debate with you yesterday
Hi Not a Victim,
You have missed the point again. I have NOT asked you about “your credibility”.
How can I – we are not even aquaintainces in the normal sense of the word.
What I said was “what would it take for people like you to believe in credibility in Amway” – therefore I quoted big guns like Microsoft, IBM etc supporting Amway. My question to you was: Do you now believe that Amway is credible ?
I would not go so far as questioning your intelligence like you did mine earlier (I am loving this healthy debate and one day you will understand the difference I am trying to make). But HOW on earth can you say that you are more successful with Amway with 0 investiment,0 in everyghing and on top of that you are advising me to take a second job at Walmart or 7Eleven !!! How about the following:
:):):)
- 0 chance of retiring early.
- 0 chance of success.
- 100 % spending money on lousy products.
- 100 % belief that stuff like colgate was produced before start of mankind.
- 100% mentality of an employee and NOT an employer. See this: when you visit
a restaurant they say “employees must wash their hands before leaving the
restroom” – they NEVER say “Employers must wash their hands….”.
I am impressed by the length you people will go to trash Amway WITHOUT understanding anything.
THIS IS PRECISELY the thing I wish to avoid in my life and THAT is the reason I want my OWN business. You guys out there are PROGRAMMED by the elders and friends “not to have your business” but to WORK for someone.
By the way “Not a Victim” – you have NOT answered my questions. I did answer yours did’nt I. So now are we being fair? Pls tell me in all honesty like I did.
Unless you answer the 3 basic Questions I asked about Amway, I think it will not be futile to carry on this debate. If you do – we have a deal.
Cheers
Shekhar:
You have been brainwashed. I suggest you start your deprogramming by reading “The Ten Big Lies of MLM” at the link below. Here’s an interesting fact:
“For almost everyone who invests MLM turns out to be a losing financial proposition. This is not an opinion, but a historical fact. Consider some notable examples from among the largest MLMs.
“In the largest of all MLMs, Amway, only 1/2 of one percent of all distributors make it to the basic level of “direct” distributor, and the average income of all Amway distributors is about $40 a month. That is gross income before taxes and expenses. When costs are factored, it is obvious that nearly all suffer a loss. Making it to “direct”, however, is not a ticket to profitability, but to greater losses. When the Wisconsin Attorney General filed charges against Amway, tax returns from all distributors in the state revealed an average net loss of $918 for that state’s “direct” distributors.”
http://www.falseprofits.com/MLM%20Lies.html
With Amway, you have:
- 0 chance of retiring early.
- 0 chance of success.
- 100 % spending money on lousy products.
- 100 % belief that your Amway “friends” are interested in anything other than picking your pocket.
- 100% mentality that you can get rich having others sell the same stuff WalMart sells cheaper, more efficiently and without annoying those around you.
It’s a pipe dream, a scam that uses cult techniques. Run, Shekhar, run like the wind while you still can!!!!
Ahhh, joy. Another person who claims to provide evidence that Amway is a scam by pointing out that only folk who work hard make money!
Did you join Amway thinking it was some get rich quick pyramid scam and then get disappointed and disillusioned when it took actual months and years of hard work to make good money?
Read Amway Success: What are your odds? for a proper analysis.
ibofightback:
Please give me back the brain cells I sacrificed trying to decipher that convoluted and irrelevant post.. The Professor made a stupid analogy and you made an even stupider response.
Is that the Amway strategy of baffling with b*llsh*t? Or do you just think you sound intelligent writing stuff so boring it will never be read?
Sorry, but I think the http://www.falseprofits.com/MLM%20Lies.html article is a little clearer and is backed up with facts.
The Wisconsin Attorney General found that Amway distributors lost money across the board, and those who advanced to “direct” level got to lose even more!
Some wealth-building system… Impressive
Have you read the Wisconsin case? I have. It’s from more than THIRTY YEARS AGO! They took folk who once, in just one month, did enough volume to become called a direct. It was common then for folk to do a big “push” selling cookware or some such to qualify, then the volume disappeared. To reach that level now requires 6 months – ie a much more stable business – AND Amway has more than doubled the bonuses for this level.
Now, what were those 192 directs doing? According to the WAG case, 139 of them had annual adjusted gross incomes in excess of $12,000 and the average for *all* Wisconsin directs was . That’s over $40,000 in today’s dollars. So where did the “loss” FitzPatrick reports come from?
First, business expense deductions. Any smart business owner goes out of their way to minimize their taxable income as much as legally possible. Indeed, some go too far, and the IRS has in the past prosecuted Amway distributors for claiming too many expenses and losses when they didn’t really have them, or weren’t actually running a business anymore – just claiming the deductions! Second was he went and added back in all of those 53 “directs” earning less than $12,000. I’d venture to suggest many of them had quite low incomes, for reasons such as I outlined above. Guess what that does to your averages?
Yup, more of those folk not working, and not earning an income, and you’d have us believe they’d been “scammed”? People who worked hard made money, and people who didn’t didn’t, and this is a scam? Pleeeasssee…
As for Mr FitzPatrick himself, I could write all day about his wacky analysis (and you accuse ME of b*llsh*t?), but instead I’ll recommend court-certified MLM expert Len Clement’s excellent expose – Anti-MLM Zealots Part II – Robert FitzPatrick. Interestingly, in a case a couple of years ago against Quixtar in California (Quixtar won), the plaintiffs tried to call FitzPatrick as an expert. The judge pretty much laughed it out of the court and wouldn’t allow him.
Hi “Not a Victim”,
Thanks for your advice. Sorry to inform you, I have not been brainwashed as you presume.
Why should I run ? I have found my friend whom I can trust when he says he earned a big bonus. I have gone out of the way to join. This is the difference.
Nevertheless, you have STILL not answered my questions.
Cheers
ibofightback,
pls email me.
thanks/Shekhar
Shekhar, I would if I had your email
Leave me a comment on The Truth About Amway or Amway Talk
Shekhar:
I’m not sure which 3 questions you are talking about. You’ve said some bizarre things and I’m kind of confused. Let me know if these are not the correct questions.
Do I believe “colgate was produced before start of mankind?”
No I don’t.
Do I think it’s unfair that restaurant signs say “employees must wash their hands before leaving the restroom” – and NEVER say “Employers must wash their hands…
No, I don’t think I care.
Who’s more successful with Amway, someone who’s down $318 or someone who’s down $0.
At this point, neither. However, only one may end up losing money.
ibofightback:
Since you seem to be so up on all the latest statistical data, I’m sure you can tell us what the average income of Amway distributors at the different levels… or do we just have to be impressed that Shekhar has a “friend” who knows someone who makes $250K.
If you could answer the question without linking to one of your incomprehensible and self-important posts it would be much appreciated:)
Slightly out of date data as Amway has increased the bonuses significantly, however average income stats from 2006 in the United States were -
Q-12 Platinum $47,472.
Emerald $72,241
Diamond $146,995
In 2000 average incomes for other levels of achievement were also reported -
Platinum $27,064
Founders Platinum$31,047
Q12 Award $39,846
Emerald $64,639
Founders Emerald $84,577
Diamond $139,298
Founders Diamond $228,091
Exec. Diamond and Above $495,152
Founders Exec. and Above $1,303,190
You can see explanations of all the “titles” on Amway Wiki
Sorry you find my step by step with explanation posts incomprehensible. Feel free to ask for clarifications for the parts you don’t understand.
I must say I find it amazing you can come on a public forum and spout all this criticism and haven’t even done the smallest piece of research, such as reading http://www.thisbiznow.com for statistics.
Note: as you can see by comparing the same levels, incomes went up quite a bit from 2000 to 2007. This is also income from just one country. Most Diamond and above (and many below) end up developing Amway businesses in multiple countries. There are folk who qualify Diamond and higher in more than a dozen countries and get those kind of incomes in all of them.
ibofightback:
Interesting that you list incomes ranging from $47,000 to $146,000, and even $1,000,000+ per year at the top level, yet leave out the fact that even your questionable source says “The Average Monthly Gross Income for ‘Active’ IBOs was $115″
Hmmm… How many “Founders Exec. and Above” earning $1,303,190 exist?
How many active IBOs are there to bring the “average” down to a meager $1380 gross income… which I assume is before taxes and doesn’t include overhead and necessary expenses such as travel, meetings, fees, books, tapes and other crap needed to maintain the “millionaire mindset” and PMA.
The fact that you toss out the rare, highest end numbers (if they even are true) rather than the income of the vast majority of those involved is why Amway gets such a bad rap. Nothing is straightforward with you guys. It’s like you’re allergic to honesty.
I guess it works when you’re preaching to your lobotomized choir, and to people so desperate to believe like poor Shekhar here. But it’s very transparent and annoying to those who haven’t drank your koolaid.
Only one question needs to be asked – did you read the definition used to define “active” for the purposes of the average income?
I knew something productive would come of this discussion. I’ve invented a new saying: “Like trying to get a straight answer from an Amway salesman.”
Yes, I read it. I also read the definition of “gross income.” and I am already familiar with the term “average.”
The reason people hate you guys is not because of an unfair rap on the Internet, it’s because you can never just address an issue straightforwardly, honestly and in a non-annoying fashion. That’s also why you don’t get invited to more parties.
The question is simply what, on average, happens to people like our friend Shekhar when they join up. On average, how much do they spend, how much to they earn in year one, year two, etc. How many stick with it to the point of recouping their investment.
It’s a pretty simple concept (which probably makes it instantly unacceptable). No need to parade the plutonium level members $1,000,000 checks… I’d be interested to see the actual results of 1000 or so Shekhars a couple years down the road.
Of course, if this information is not available I can certainly understand. The state lotteries and casinos don’t advertise the thousands who go broke and never win either.
So you read it and don’t have a problem with the income statistics? Don’t you think $1380 is pretty good income for asking your brother, once, if he wants to buy an XS energy drink (and he says no) – don’t you think that’s a pretty good income? What would the hourly rate be? $1380 for about 10 secs – nearly half a million dollars an hour! Pretty good money, no? Or how about you decide to buy some prestige cosmetics for your wife’s birthday, and it get’s you a 3% rebate from Amway. Presto – $1380!!
What a great deal!
That’s not the way it works though is it? The first guy probably made $0. The second maybe got ten or twenty bucks back in a rebate. But they’re all included in those statistics!
And you think that’s bad?
Here’s the reality. Most people who register with Amway never doing a single thing after registering, they don’t even order any products. 7 out of 10 don’t renew their business after a year. No more than 20% ever attend any seminars or buy any training or marketing material. No more than 5% ever do the recommended work for even one month. No more than 1% ever do the recommended work for at least 6 months, the minimum considered necessary to build a profitable business.
Heck, another MLm, Shaklee, told the FTC that 85% of the people who register with them do so purely to get the products cheaper. Amway doesn’t ask folk that, but it’s probably not so different. If they join, and successfully order a product at member pricing, they’ve succeeded haven’t they? Yet it would appear you consider them “Amway failures”.
So, short answer is less than 1% go on to make any decent income, and that’s entirely fair and equitable because less than 1% put in the consistent work over time necessary.
As a UK judge put it recently,it’s an opportunity, not a guarantee. It’s low cost, so pretty much anyone can give it a go and decide if it’s for them or not. If they decide it’s not, and they don’t think they got their money’s worth with what they have spent, then they can get refunds, no questions asked.
How more fair can you get?
“…short answer is less than 1% go on to make any decent income…”
Thank you.
That wasn’t so hard, was it?
You already knew that, but you’d coated it in so much BS as to be almost dishonest. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.
Now let’s do the flipside of what it means –
close to 100% of folk who do what is recommended consistently for 1-2years earn $47,000k/yr and higher.
Not bad money for a part-time business that can be started for peanuts
Not a Victim,
So you missed my 3 simple questions which I had asked of you on March 7th.
I repeat them again – copied from above:
Do you discern “dishonesty” in my response – now can YOU be honest as I have been.
QUOTE
Can I ask you in all honesty:
- WHAT exactly is that you do NOT like about AMWAY ?
- What exactly do you KNOW about AMWAY ?
- What is the EXACT reason that you take pity on folks like me (it is not warranted
though – let me tell you firmly).
May I expect a frank and an honest answer ?
UNQUOTE.
Cheers
I attended my first Amway presentation was decades ago when I was in high school. My girlfriend was recruited at her retail job by a creepy couple who wrung my shirttale in water to show how much detergent was in the material, dipped my hand in shoe polish, etc. They were deceptive, annoying and had a cultlike mentality. Even back then they wouldn’t disclose that the “opportunity” was Amway ahead of time. My girlfriend got involved for a short time, invested some, became annoying for a while then quit.
Over the years, I saw literally dozens go through the same process… In the beginning they get sucked in to the entrepreneurial Amway dream (illusion) and are crazy excited with all the possibilities. They buy a bunch of crap, books, tapes, go to meetings, and learn to doubletalk around the truth. Soon they are justifying things, like not telling you the name to get you to presentations, and general sneakiness. They are no longer fun to be around, because they see personal relationships as financial opportunities. Once they’ve used up their initial friend-imposition sales, one day they realize that they’re not going to make any money at this, that the retail world is fulfilling that role just fine without them. Eventually, everyone I’ve ever encountered snaps out, but has lost money and damaged their relationships and reputations. They feel like schmucks and deservedly so.
So where does all the money come that you see in those big checks at Amway sales meetings? I suspect that it’s from all those schmucks who get sucked into the cult dream and who buy crap and sell to friends til they lose them and quit in embarrassment. 99.6% says that will happen to you too Shekhar.
Sorry, that’s not a legitimate business model.
Of course, that’s my opinion from being annoyed by decades of Amway wannabe dreamers. And it’s shared by many many others.
Not a Victim:
So you answered the first question – but not the second and the third.
As for your response. Agreed, some people do not upfront say this is Amway. I for one, do just that with all. If they are interested to at least know – I will explain – if not – then I dont waste my time and theirs.
Now ask yourself. Why do some people do this ? It is because there are people like you who have spoilt this good company’s name. I was exactly like you – WITHOUT knowing how this works, I kept myself away from this! But then I found my childhood friend who retired 8 years ago – we recently met and got talking – I am still working from paycheck to paycheck. Whereas he travels the world and has a high-flying lifestyle. Does this answer your question “where does all the money come that you see in those big checks at Amway sales meetings ?”.
And, NO, I DO NOT see those checks in the meetings. There are people like me who have found a source they can trust. So we have gone OUT OF THE WAY to join Amway – and not the other way round. So all I need to do is to locate people like me.
Let me tell you some more (my question: what you know about Amway). What you have said is what all snobbish (Yes, I was one too till now) people are saying “Amway is no good” WITHOUT FINDING out how and why it works.
Ask yourself: Are you interested an a PLAN-B – i.e. an additional income i.e. IN ADDITION to what you must be earning thru your normal 9-5 job (of course, you need not tell me that you land up working 8 till 8 like me and get paid only 40 hrs a week).
If you are NOT interested in this income, then lets forget everything we have been discussing. If you are in fact interested, then say so and I can take the trouble to explain to you how and why it works.
Otherwise I will be breaking my head against a wall and so will you. If you are interested, if not from us, GO FIND OUT what is Amway and how it works. If not, at least DO NOT curse it just because “your friend is cursing it”.
People give up Amway before they cut even – because they think this is a “Get rich quick” scheme. They do not understand the hard work involved and neither they have the patience. THESE PEOPLE have spoilt Amway name. So be it. People like me want to be AS FAR AWAY as possible from such people. There are 280 million out there – if I find just 20-50 people like me – I am fine. THIS IS THE HARD WORK – find out the like minded people.
Do you think all the top brands including Microsoft/IBM/Dell are nuts to partner with Amway ?
My son owns a Dell computer – Dell is Amway partner now – and I have my own business – my own “Shop” if you will – so the next time I need to buy Dell stuff, I will buy from “my own shop”
:):)
Cheers
Not a Victim,
By the way. Did you notice Amway DOES NOT solicit people to “click here” to find out more or “submit your name/email/phone number” to find out “more”.
People, can you not see thru this “Age old tricks” and are you not intelligent enough to understand which one is genuine ?
I just checked a few links on this page and am quite angry at people being “NAIVE” on one end and sending in their name/phone number etc to “Find out more” froma “Get rich quick” scheme on one hand and “KNOW ALL” and cursing Amway on the other.
Come on guys!! You want to earn big bucks in a month ? Don’t even come near AMWAY. Thank God it is not for people like you!!!
Cheers
Hi – Just to let you know my good friend and neighbor who touted NuSkin recently just got out of the business – I say she was in it for six months with her hubby. We are such good friends that I forgave her for dragging me into this event that turned out to be one of those scam seminars. I even bought products from her because I felt sorry for her. Those products are still sitting under my bed unused. They were very expensive. Basically, do the math. You only make the money if you recruit enough people who each recruit others on their own and every member stuck with his/her membership. As far as my friend was concerned, people started making U-turns when they saw her because nobody wanted to listen to the other products that NuSkin has, etc. I avoided her like the plague after a while. She became a different person and is constantly defending NuSkin even though it’s sucking out her savings. She eventually got out of the business after a few months. Her house is on sale right now. I think NuSkin was her attempt to catch up on her bills but that failed miserably for her.
Beware of trying to push these items off to coworkers too. It can cost you your day-time job (full-time job is important in that you get benefits and a real paycheck without having to buy their products over and over). With layoffs coming through the pipeline, the annoying NuSkin/Amway person can be the next in line to get canned – companies can lay off people with very little reason.
I agree with “Not a Victim” in that you cannot make money at the expense of family and friends and consider them not worthy of your friendship simply because they can’t afford to buy from you anymore. When you push your friends and family to buy from you, they no longer want to hang out with you because they think you’re only into them for the money they can give you.
I personally like Costco in that I can buy the stuff and use them and not feel like I have to buy more. I purchase items to use them and not to resell them to family and friends and make more money off them. I also give these products away to family and friends at no charge for them to try and it doesn’t matter to me how much it’s costing me to give these items for free. If they like it, they can go to Costco to buy these very same items and they thank me. I’m always glad to be able to help them. That’s what friends and family is all about. I don’t ever plan on making a dime off them. I don’t have any ulterior motives when I have others try my products.
The business model for MLM’s don’t work. I went to the seminar that said if I recruit 10 people and each of those 10 people recruit 10 people who recruit 10 more on their own and everybody stays recruited forever – then I will be rich. Well, the probability of that happening is very slim.
Now, I steer away from MLM recruiters. You can bet if anybody at work tries to recruit me, I will straighten that person out big time.
I think MLM works for foreign people who can’t find good opportunities in this country and are desperate for the money. This is based on my personal observation. A lot of people doing this type of work are Chinese and Filipinos because their family and friends are very tightly knitted and they tend to trust each other. These are very trusting and good people who are easily misled. That’s why they are ideal preys for MLM.
If you were to go to an MLM seminar and I’ve been to quite a few in college and one recently (I was dragged there under false pretenses). Most of the people attending are minorities with broken English or people who lack a 4-yr college degree. Maybe people with 4-yr degrees and full-time careers are too busy? Based on my experience, it doesn’t work unless you have a pushy personality and your customers are people who are afraid to offend you or else you have something on them.
These are just my thoughts. If AMWAY/NuSkin offers such great products, then maybe they should just open up stores in malls and sell them off the shelves instead of recruiting people and charging them membership fees. These wonderful products should speak for themselves – right?
If I ever make a lot of money on an opportunity, I would just keep it to myself and not share. Why would I want to create so much competition in the same market space and dilute my customer space – right? I’ll just keep selling my “great products” and never recruit anybody. But then the corporate office would not earn any membership fees. But then if the products are so great and should sell like hot cakes, why bother with membership fees?
I loved the “I have plenty of AMWAY friends” comment !!!
Sounds eerily like “I have plenty of SCIENTOLOGY friends”
‘beware of mlm” (wow, you ARE inventive):
YOu must take pity on yourself at your narrow understanding (did you say you were a college grad ?) – do I SOUND like a person with broken English and without a collge degree ? (never mind my 25 year of executive experience)…. ?
You menioned “NuSkin” right ? – do you know these are all spin offs of Amway ? Amway is celebrating 50 years. Brands like Barnes and Noble, IBM, Microsoft, Shop.com, Office Depot, all Cell Companies etc.etc…..have all partnered with Amway…..you need not ask WHY – because it won’t make a difference to you…..because you are a college grad…..and all Amway franchises who I know (IT Directors, high-flying consultants, Doctors are all no match to you…..of course).
You write, quote “The business model for MLM’s don’t work. I went to the seminar that said if I recruit 10 people and each of those 10 people recruit 10 people who recruit 10 more on their own and everybody stays recruited forever – then I will be rich” unquote.
If THIS is your understanding then it is GOOD that you are not a part of Amway….you are welcome to:
- Shop at Costco for the rest of your lift.
- Go to work Monday to Friday for someone else till you are 65.
- Work at Walmart after 65 (unless you win a lotto).
- Make Waltons the billionaires of the world.
- Advertise for someone else (say to your friend “Costco is a good place to shop”.
- Continue being friends with your “Friends” – no you cannot leave them, no.
- Never belive Amway is a 50 Billion company.
PLEASE NEVER CONSIDER:
- To EVEN try for a plan B (aside from your job).
- Work outside or office hours for YOUR OWN.
- To have a “Decent” life.
Why do:
- You badmouth Amway without KNOWING how it works, without FINDING OUT
how it works…..or NOT UNDERSTANDING how it works……
and I:
- Waste my time on the likes of you….
Sorrym I do not mean it personally to you…..it is just “YOU”…….who make our life challenging…….:)
Cheers/Shekhar
Hey Shekhar, I’m not going to pity you, if you have belief in your ability to make it work and have that much pride in it, then I wish you the best. Nobody here wishes you harm, in fact this website is here fore the sake of preventing it. Whether people start a franchise or join a MLM, the reason they do it is for the exact same reasons you say: be your own boss, supplement your income, opportunities for explosive growth. And I can understand that at the age of 50, you may want to try something new, or just want a chance at that dream you saw your friend living. But I think a lot of the people who post here have failed not because they didn’t try hard enough, but because all the promises they were told never happened, and the longer they stayed, they only lost more money. But like you said, as a way of supplementing income it may have promise, but as a main source of income there is just too much uncertainty to raise a family that way, and if you have any children it is not right by them. You can’t feed your family with a promise of potential gain, you need to be making real, genuine money for that.
And even though Amway offers everyone the equal opportunity of success, not everyone starts out at the same point, right? Some people are naturally sellers and charismatic, others have a strong family and friend connections who will buy from them, but for many people they will just hit dead ends. Is putting my money into Amway more profitable then putting it into a slot machine? Also, Amway sells things that people don’t need, you have to persuade them to spend more on basic necessities especially in this bad economy. If you are already in the paycheck to paycheck position, would you buy things based on how well they work or how cheap they are (also, I’ve used Costco detergent, it works just as well as Tide, and I get roughly the number of loads as written on the box).But I’ll believe you that yours is better.
You say your wife loves these products… Then what is the purpose of both of you joining? She already has access to the products you want for a good price, and don’t you guys have access to the same people to sell to? I don’t understand the basic premise, I think. Is Amway’s purpose to sell these products to it’s members so they can resell to others, or is it to get other people to join by paying a fee so that they can get Amway products at a lower price? What is your business plan to attract people to their products? Door to door, or just between friends and family? How do you constantly meet new people? Your selling ability is basically dependant on how much people trust you, right? And then to recruit them also is based on your ability to show the promise of the Amway idea. Perhaps your friend made all his actual money by convincing people he already had made a lot of money, so they signed up too as his referrals, right? Isn’t it possible he is taking advantage of you too?
But besides all that, I think Amway’s angle is that they want to make the buyer feel they are buying something unique. Their products contain all kinds of strange herbs, or “cutting edge” chemicals, to differentiate them, and people are continually fascinated with this stuff. Look at the shamwow, for example. It is old technology, passed of as something new and amazing, and people buy into it. That’s why I will agree there is a market, and I also agree that Asian/Hispanic minorities do make a great target for these things since they are more readily believing in herbal/miraculous things. If you can find a group like that with disposable income, you might be successful. But just because there’s a market out there, doesn’t mean success. Like any selling job, you can only bring the horse to the water.
Also, it seems all the ties of IBM, Dell, Microsoft, are all client-based, as in they were hired to do work for Amway. What amway does has no bearing in the technical markets they are involved in, but those companies most likely handle their internal infrastructure. They are paid to do so, it’s not because they believe in Amway. You shouldn’t use that as a line.
Hi “Good Luck, man”
I liked your post. Will respond back when I can find some time…….
I am overwhelmed by the way people are badmouthing Amway……….without UNDERSTANDING it…..
But one thing quickly…..You can find Microsoft, IBM Dell products on Amway…..
Cheers/Shekhar
IBM, Microsoft, etc – they all did work for Amway. Their credibility has nothing to do with Amway. Same with partner stores. Basically, they have Amway’s sales force sell stuff for them. They do not sell Amway goods.
Nearly all of those who get involved in Amway will realize a net loss. Those who get hooked on the system may realize massive losses. The entire system is a leach that attaches itself onto the Amway business and sucks the IBOs dry. If you don’t believe me, just do the math. Most IBOs are at 100 PV where they make $9 a mont or 300 PV where they make $36 a month.
The system along with other fees cost at least $100 a month on average, and that is the lower end of the estimates.
[...] IS AMWAY A SCAM? [...]
I DON’T UNDERSTAND THOSE PEOPLE WHO ARE TRYING TO SAY THAT AMWAY IS A “SCAM”. PEOPLE HAVE NEVER ACHIEVED ANYTHING IN THEIR LIVES AND OBVIOUSLY DIDN’T DO ANYTHING WITH THIS BUSINESS, THINKING THAT BY SIGNING, MONEY WILL START POURING INTO THEIR ACCOUNT. YOU FAILURES ARE FINDING AN EXCUSE AND YOU KNOW IT!!! I DON’T CARE IF IT TAKES ME 10 YEARS TO HAVE TREMENDOUS INCOME. BUT I WILL NOT GO TO WORK AS YOU ARE, SO CALLED SLAVES!!! YOU GOTTA THINK OUTSIDE OF YOUR BOX AND YOUR STUPID FRIENDS WHO ARE PULLING YOU DOWN TO THEIR CRAP NEST.
YOU KNOW THAT BY GOING TO WORK, YOU ARE FULFILLING SOMEBODY ELSES DREAM AND GOALS??? OH YOU HAVE ONE TOO? REALLY? –YOU PROBABLY FOUND ONE THAT WOULD ACCOMMODATE WITH THE INCOME YOU ARE GETTING. YOUR DREAMS MUST BE SO BIG THAT FACTS WILL NOT COUNT…
Amway apologists nearly always repeat the same tired themes: financial freedom; the 2 to 5 year plan; fire the boss; being ‘independent’, and so forth. They are taught to ‘believe’ in the face of some very disturbing circumstances where they are always required to ‘pay out’ and not necessarily ‘receive in.’
Amway products are basically so priced as to be absolutely unretailable outside of the ‘distribution chain’ of ‘distributors’ who for all intents and purposes are the only retail customers that Amway can brag about. These erstwhile business men and women raid their own warehouses and stock the excess in their pantries.
Amway believers are exposed to the illogical ‘tool and function’ business run by the Amway ‘kingpins’. This is not a benign affair as some Amway believers claim. Total expense for the vast amount of books, CDs, tapes, phone message systems, quarterly rally attendance, and related transportation-lodging expense can extend into the thousands of dollars. Yes, one CD can be about $8 dollars, but this is just a mere drop in the bucket to what I’ve personally seen people actually spend. Amway expects all these ‘supposed independent business people’ to basically cover all their own ‘over-head’ and provide many hours of personal time (for basically free) in the hope that they recruit others.
Amway IBOs may pay lip service to the idea of ‘selling’ the badly overpriced, unremarkable products, but in the end, they are taught the ‘art’ of ‘duplication’ and the well known principle of ‘buy from yourself and teach others to do the same’ for which they believe is the ultimate key to finding riches in the Amway ‘game of greed.’ Sadly, in the end, the enrich the top of the pyramid kingpin distributors and the Ada Devos-Van Andel criminogenic swindlers based in Ada, Michigan.
Amway apologists brag that Amway has been in existence for over 50 years and hold this out as legitimacy. They fail to mention the thousands and thousands of people who have been suckered, run through the Amway grist mill, over this period of time where the rolling failure rate for nearly all entrants approaches 100 percent. Amway has been described by Robert Fitzpatrick, pyramid scheme expert, as the ‘American Scam’.
It is interesting to note that Amway, at the present day, founded as the ‘American Way’ does most of its business in places like Communist China. They seek to find new ‘suckers’ for their scheme outside of the U.S. because their affairs and reputation have deservedly been scuttled in the Americas. Indeed the financial and social distress of the Amway cult makes Amway a pernicious world cult, which for all intents and purposes makes it just as pernicious of a scheme as Scientology (which has recently been convicted in France of Stealing the livelihood of believing ‘adherents’ there).
By a majority opinion of high justices in the world’s largest democracy, the Republic of India, Amway is in violation of India’s laws against money circulation schemes, similar to U.S. laws against pyramid and Ponzi schemes in the U.S..
Amway hides behind an ever increasing ‘labyrinth’ of independent corporate structures, but rest assured, all the money extracted from this ongoing regime goes into the coffers of U.S. based racketteers. These fellows then use these ‘revenues’ to buy protection under the guise of one Richard Devos.
Recently it has been announced that the American Way is ‘outsourcing’ many of its corporate ‘accountant’ jobs out of country. These folks after having ‘taken’ Americans for half a century are basically moving on. They benefit by taking their affairs to China and elsewhere, where differences in culture and language tends to mask the truth of how they’ve swindled the American public in their own homeland.
To advocate Amway to others should be a crime: Intent to Defraud. Word to the wise. quixtarisacult.
Hi Quixtarisacult,
You have written “English” I presume….alphabets are familiar….but cannot understnad a word….either that or you are completely confused my friend. Else, pray explain your statements like “By a majority opinion of high justices in the world’s largest democracy, the Republic of India, Amway is in violation of India’s laws against money circulation schemes, similar to U.S. laws against pyramid and Ponzi schemes in the U.S.. ”
Amway is LEGAL in the countries you mention. Is this too hard to understand or are you a kid pretending to be a grown-up??? Or maybe you have been “programmed” to say these things…after all it fashionable to badmouth Amway……
Guys, it is futile explaining the concept to you. You say I have been brainwashed….I say YOU have been brainwashed.
Here is a real life incident that dates back to 1977 when Amway was successful even when the model was to sell door to door……:
One Amway businessman (he is a multi millionnaire now) was explaining the opportunity to a group of about 500 people in a posh hotel in Atlanta….circa 1977…..One smart-aleck from the audience started to speak in loud whispers…..”oh this Amway thing”…..”I KNOW it does’t work”…..repeating over and over again…causing disturbance….that was his intent…..Now read this:
AB: You sir…you in the middle…yes you….can you pls stand up ?
SA: (looking around…getting up) yes ?
AB: Sir, what is your name ?
SA: Smart Aleck!
AB: Do you have a job ?
SA: Yes of course!
AB: Do you own a house ?
SA: (proudly)…You bet I do!
AB: Do you have a mortgage ?
SA: Yes.
AB: Does your wife work ?
SA: Yes she does.
AB: Cars ?
SA: (proudly) – Two!
AB: Care payments ?
SA: Two.
AB: Sir, I do’nt have a job, my wife does not work. I have 3 houses. No mortgage payments. 27 cars (today he has 44 cars!), no car payments…now, one of us is stupid…..can you tell me who is it ?
Kapisch ????? No ? I guessed.
Cheers/Shekhar
Shekhar:
Not that a 32 year old wisecrack by a supposed millionaire isn’t impressive… but let’s talk facts. How close are you to making your first million with Amway?
Why don’t you dazzle us with a month-by-month breakdown of how much you spent on Amway, how much time you invested, and how much revenue you generated?
March 7, 2009 you wrote:
“I am turning 50 shortly.
I have just joined the business 2 weeks ago.
I have spent USD 318/- towards registration.
I have received products that is having my wife jumping with joy.
I plan to spend USD 250/- per month on buying stuff from MY OWN business
rather than spending it in Costco or Walmart.
I have my Amwaite friend (yes I call them friends) who, about 3 years back joined Amway…Today he makes about 2680/- a month.”
How much did you make in March? April? May? June? July? August? September? October? How much did you spend?
I don’t hear someone open a restaurant and say its ok not to have customers because he eats for free.
My guess is you are still pouring money into the pit and pretending that your own purchases justify the scam you defend. Otherwise, you would be bragging about your income and not repeating some stupid anecdote.
And by the way, the millionaire you quote… he made his millions off poor deluded souls like you who idolize those bloodsuckers who are feeding off your dreams… hoping some day you can feed off the dreams of others.
guest (why not the real name ???),
Siiiiigggggghhhhhh!!!! How to REASON with the likes of you is beyond my comprehension ! Actually, my whole reason is to fight the UNREASONABLE BADMOUTHING of something…..without knowledge, without information, without KNOWING what the heck it is all about. Why should I waste time with people like you sometimes pains me. But well, one more attempt to get indignated about your stupid statements like “pouring money”, bloodsuckers etc.
- Your Boss at work is a Bloodsucker!! but you wont know that – right ?
- You would rather make Walmart rich than yourself, but you wont know that right ?
- You start a business, when someone asks you “Are you a millionnaire yet ?
people like you get mad and argue that it takes years to break even.
But you wont admit that right ?
- Suppose you buy say a laundry detergent, you wont ask the question “First tell
me who is making money and only then will I pay the amount”. You wont
do that because you know Walmar is making money and you are PROUD
to fill in the coffers of Walmart.
But people like you are INTELLIGENT – not ignorant and “cult like” like us poor
mortals (we have the likes of NASA scientists, PHD’s, doctors, engneers etc etc
but so WHAT right ? we are ALL of us so stupid that we cannot equal
ONE person’s (i.e. YOU) intelligence ! You will be the FIRST person to ask
the question when buying Amway stuff “First tell me who is making money and
only then I will buy!!!!!!!!!!!”.
Wow, what intelligence, what persoanlity !
I hate to say this (mind you, I will never say this) but here is what the SAME multi millionnaire Amway Businessman says – but yes, I AGREE to what he says:
SA: I hate to buy Amway Stuff. They are so expensive.
AB: (trying to reason) – well the products are concentrated……..
SA: No I will not buy them.
AB: Then stay broke idiot ! (and moves on to explain the opportunity to the next person who wants to make a difference in his life).
One more example:
Time x Rate = Salary.
I am sure you are a math genious. Not like us. So figure out WHAT can make the Salary zero!!
When you figure out what could be the reasons for Salary to become zero, ask yourself, what can you do (take another job? or do SOMETHING IN ADDITION to your job ).
Go figure and only then write to me. Otherwise why bother ?
According to you – I am stupid and an idiot.
According to me – you are misinformed and not a fair person.
So there.
Cheers/Shekhar
Guys (all and sundry),
Can you not understand:
JOB AMWAY
A guy can give a job/can also give pink slip. No question of pink slip.
You buy stuff anyway (do you ask question But SAME stuff
“Who is making money ?”) Why ask question “who is….”.
Salary is POSITION Based. Money is PERFORMANCE based.
You work hard. Your boss earns More. YOu work hard. you earn more.
Salary = Time x Rate Money = how much you work.
Salary can become zero. Earnings cannot become zero
for 3 generations.
Is it DIFFICULT to understand – difficult to penetrate the coconut ???
Cheers/Shekhar
Shekhar:
Blah… Blah… Blah… You have been blabbing on here since last March about how much people can make selling Amway. But you won’t answer the direct question: How much have YOU made since February when you joined?
So far all you have said is that you spent $318 to join and you have been your only customer. That confirms the suspicion about Amway: that most of the sales are just to delusional suckers with garages and spare bedrooms full of unsold stuff people can get cheaper at Wal Mart. The only people they sell to are the friends and relatives who feel sorry for them or are embarrassed for them or get cornered. But that won’t last cuz they’ll learn to avoid them quickly.
I can guarantee the few normal friends you might still have (if any) are really sick of hearing your increasingly desperate rants and raves about how great Scamway is and about distant mythical people (who are not you) who make money.
Forget the rest: How much have you made? How many repeat customers do you have? How much money and time have you spent?
Tell me I’m wrong: You would have made more if you had spent the same hours working at Wal Mart, wouldn’t you?
On second thought, don’t answer. Your silence does more damage to the Amway reputation than any of the critics can.
Shekhar: I have a great business opportunity for you. If you had started this opportunity at the same time you went into Amway you would have netted more than $4000 by now (profit!). Best yet there is no upfront fee, no inventory and no risk. Plus, you have an opportunity to get great benefits.
According to the KMart greeter ad “The Customer Greeter is responsible for consistently keeping the customer at the center of everything he/she does. Greets all customers as they enter the store, and is knowledgeable of the store layout and sale merchandise on hand. Knowledgeable of store, services and locations of merchandise.A comprehensive and competitive benefit program is designed to meet the needs of our associates and their families. Benefits offered include: Medical and Dental Plans, Health Care and Dependent Daycare Flexible Spending Accounts, Short and Long-Term Disability, Company Paid and Optional Life Insurance, Business Travel Insurance, Merchandise Discount, Kmart Advantage Rx, Sears Holdings Corporation Associate Stock Purchase Plan, 401(k) Savings Plan, Vacation Time with Personal Days, National Holidays…”
At $11 an hour for 10 hours a week, you will be much farther ahead than you’d be with Scamway. Plus, you won’t annoy as many people. And you get to wear a cool uniform! Plus, I hear the people at the top have made millions.
Hi gues,
Regarding your last post….you do not know the SIMPLE disctinction between a “JOB” and a “BUSINESS” – you are completely utterly confused and hence (although I hope not) you will remain where you are….I already have job thank you very much….I dont need another JOB…..so when you disguise a job a biz, that is alright….!! ha ha!!
Hi guest,
Your post previous to the one where you think a JOB is a BIZ:
Why should I keep silent, I am PROUD of the fact that:
- I have a job like you do..
- BUT, I have SOMETHING extra which you dont have!
So why should I keep silent.
As to your previous question: how much do I make, blah blah blah…..
- I told you…I am a beginner in this business so I DO NOT EXPECT to make
any money…..I told you, “if some one does conventional biz, you guys
argue “it takes a long time to break even” so WHY do you ask how much do
I make in less than one year just because I am in Amway biz..
Stick around friend and time will come when I can tell you how much I make.
I always answer questions in this blog…problem is people KEEP REPEATING them without bothering to READ first.
Cheer/Shekhar
It’s been 9 months Shekhar.
What is your revenue for the past 9 months?
If you do not have revenue, you don’t have a business.
You have a hobby.
Or you are a victim of a scam but won’t admit it.
Your revenue, Shekhar?
Your investment of time & money?
We’re waiting, Shekhar…
Hi guest,
You keep repeating the same questions….you enroll into college and want to graduate the same day – well – same year!!! if this is not true then why ask the same questions. Let me tell you something pal:
- I have ALREADY received checks from Amway for stuff I purchased
which I would never have got form your Walmart / Kmart.
- I am using the stuff so I am NOT losing money.
- EVEN IF I dont make money, consider:
– I buy stuff that I would have purchased from Walmart anyway.
– I get superior quality – I USE the stuff – is that a waste of money ?
– I have a chance to make money (which I am already doing) but not
in millions – YET……why do you keep repeating the same questions ?
Like it or not, admit it. You are jealous that you CANNOT do the stuff I do so you are plain and simple envious.
I am not saying you have a LOUSY job – so why should you say my business is a scam ???!!!
Cheers/Shekhar
We’re waiting, Shekhar…
Amway can also give you a pink slip in case you didn’t know. Amway is basically a comissioned sales job with a complicated pay plan. There is no secrutiy in Amway.
Check out this post http://www.unhappyfranchisee.com/efusjon-is-efusjon-energy-club-a-pyramid-scam/
It describes a class action lawsuit against an energy drink MLM. Here’s how it describes the illegal pyramid scheme:
“…Essentially, participants are duped into believing they are buying into a legitimate business opportunity to sell a product but, in reality, the profits are derived almost solely from money advanced by new recruits inducted into the scheme. In efusjon’s case, the new recruits are under exorbitant pressure to… purchase the requisite amount of product for personal use, not for resale… the sole way to make money is for the Executive Associates to continually recruit new distributors who are also willing to buy and self-consume…”
Personal use… self-consume… sounds familiar…
Shekhar? Are you there? We’re waiting for those sales numbers, Shekhar…
Hello there guest,
You make me repeat the same things again and again….I told you that YOUR JOB is a pyramid (so is mine). first find out for yourself the difference between “position based income” and performance based income.
If you wish to listen to your friends – who by the way drive their same old Toyota Corolla, live hand to mouth, you will remain the same…..simple thing right. Exactly. Beats me why this simple thing does not permeate some peoples’ brains. Why should there be pressure to consume….? I consume EXACTLY what I want. No one pressurises me to “BUY” stuff….it is people like you who are spreading such rumours…..or possibley some bad apples giving a bad name to the biz.
Pal, if this biz is a scam, if it is a “Ponzi” scheme, if it s a “Pyramid” do you honestly think this company would have survived 50 years ? WHY should I check some stupid link you send me ? Why DONT YOU check resources like FORBES magazine, INTERNET RETAILER magazine, TIME magazine, comscore.com ?
First do this and THEN send me some stupid links ? or else, have the guts to say that FORBES is a Scam, have the guts to say that TIME magazine is a scam etc etc.
Cheers/Shekhar
Shekhar:
You have joined Amway 9 months ago but are too ashamed to say what your revenue is. So one must assume you have sold nothing. Zero. Nada. You have wasted countless hours and continue to do so. you have alienated friends and family by becoming an annoying and unsuccessful sales drone. If you had applied the same energy toward a part time job at Wal Mart you would be $5000 better off than you are now.
Why has the company survived for 50 years? Because there are lots of delusional people. You are the poster child.
Since we now know that you have zero revenue other than your own purchases, why don’t you tell us how much you’ve spent, total, on your Amway business in your first 9 months? Can you do that?
A job is not a pyramid. A job has an organizational hierarchy. Amway is compared to a pyramid because the upline makes money both direclty and indirectly from their downline. Your ability to make more than your sponsor doesn’t mean that Amway is not a pyramid. Even if you can make more than your sponsor, you will nevermake more than the old timer diamonds.
The majorityof people make nothing in Amway. IBOs who buy tools nearly guarantee that that they will lose money. The compensation plan ensures that. I have never seen an IBO actually back up their claims of actually making a profit.
Joecool wrote “The majorityof people make nothing in Amway. IBOs who buy tools nearly guarantee that that they will lose money. The compensation plan ensures that. I have never seen an IBO actually back up their claims of actually making a profit.”
Our friend Shekhar is a living example. It’s amazing how he parrots the Amway sales spiel at the same time he’s too embarrassed to talk revenue or expenses.
Joecool you make a good point about the pyramid structure. A job represents an opportunity to sell your labor for $$$. Honest pay for honest work. A pyramid represents the dream of money for nothing and your chicks for free. I guess that’s what these IBOs like Shekky are really defending… the idea that it’s possible to sit on a beach while money pours in from other poor schmucks buying useless tools and filling their garages with Amway crap.
Too bad they’re the schmucks.
Makes you wonder… Can anyone make money with Amway, Quixtar, Multi-level Marketing, MLM, network marketing or any other of these so called passive moneymaking and wealth-building business formats?
Another thing with a job, Most people apply for a job and agree to a wage or salary and they receive it in exchange for labor performed. In Amway, they attract people with promies of wealth and an easy life but the reality for most IBOs is a loss.
In Amway, it is possible to make money but not likely. However, if you make money, it will almost always be at the expense of your downline. The compensation plan is formatted that way..
Hi Joecool / guest,
How can you write a statment Joecool “I have never seen an IBO actually back up their claims of actually making a profit.” You know, you DONT want to see one. If you see one you will say “Oh he is an exception”. I KNOW 19 year olds who are making 80,000 a year!!! But you simply CANNOT hear this your senses are BLOCKED for such kind of happenings because all you want to do is badmouth Amway.
Another thing guys, your statement that “However, if you make money, it will almost always be at the expense of your downline” is so very UNTRUE and MISGUIDING that people really BELIEVE that they are true and hence shy away from superb opportunity.
Example:
You need a toothpaste.
You go to Walmar – pick up a toothpaste, do you go to the counter and just before paying yell at the top of your head “HEY WAIT, TELL ME WHO IS MAKING MONEY HERE. IF YOU ARE MAKING MONEY I WILL NOT PAY…YOU ARE MAKING MONEY AT MY EXPENSE”!!!! Guys tell me do you do this ????
But you happily PAY SAM WALTON’s descendents the profit they are charging on each commodity.
WHAT IS THE REALITY – did you ever ask yourself this or did you try to find out ????
Reality is that, you buy stuff anyway whether from Walmart or Amway. You buy stuff to use for yourself. For buying this stuff, Walmart DOES NOT pay you…Amway pays YOU…yes you, NOT your Upline…NOT your downline….you!!!!!
Then, because your upline has contributed to generating volume, the company pays you some small percentage which grows with time…… IS THIS WRONG you dumbheads ???? (not you personally – so dont take me personal)
Do you KNOW that when you buy a NIKE pair of shoes, your UPLINE Tiger Woods is making money because he contributed to generating the volume ?????
When people like me understand this concept, we KNOW what is a SCAM and what is not.
People like you (dont take me personal again) are so very VICIOUS (yes guys vicious), that they say “If I dont make money and remain poor, FINE but I DO NOT WHAT YOU to make money”. such people are and will remain poor. People in Amway make money and change their lives for the better – eventually.
I gave you SO MANY examples:
- Is FORBES a scam ?
- Is Time magazine a scam ?
- if Tmobile is partnering with Amway, is Tmobile a scam ?
- if Visa is partnering with Amway, is Tmobile a scam ?
- if Barnes and Noble is partnering with Amway, is Tmobile a scam ?
- if a NASA scientist has given up HIS job and made millions in Amway, is HE a scam ?
- Are all those Doctors, Engineers, Laywers, Software professionals, FINANCIAL CONSULANTS who are raking in money in Amway, are THEY a scam ?
Why YOUR friends have not made any money – let me tell you WHY !!!
They must be people like you – so many others like you who :
- Do not like to WORK…and literally SLEEP during office hours,
- Portray as if the world runs because of you.
- You want to join Amway thinking “OK now I do not need to work” and become a MILLIONNAIRE the SAME DAY!!! – Amway never claims this, so when reality hits, when you realize that there is a huge work involved, you guys RUN AWAY and BADMOUTH Amway.
Guys it is futile reasoning with you ! Stay where you are guys…..stay where you are!
AT LEAST I AM HAVING A CHANCE…you DONT!!! As a result you are so jealous that you keep badmouthing this wonderful opportunity.
Shekhar:
Give it up.
You’ve worked at for 9 months and have ZERO revenue.
My 6 year old daughter’s lemonade stand outperforms your “wonderful opportunity.”
Hi guest,
Yeah right….may I say that your 6 year old has more entrepreneurship than yourself…..you are BOUND to your 9 to 5. Stay there and enjoy working at 65. Right now age is probably on your side so it is the hot blood talking….I was EXACTLY the same as you…..life teaches different with time. Your badmouthing may have some adverse effect on many but if my reasoning has a positive effect on ONE so that he becomes financially independent without affecting his present job, then I WILL HAVE WON and you my friend would have lost….so there.
Shekhar writes that “if my reasoning has a positive effect on ONE so that he becomes financially independent without affecting his present job, then I WILL HAVE WON…”
I think your words are having a very positive effect.. People who are eager to invest their time and money for a year and have zero revenue, like you, will be eager to join Amway.
People of normal intelligence will listen to your lack of success and run away from this depressing scam.
I say that people who succeed in Amway do it at other’s expense. The compensation plan proves it. In a 6-4-2 plan, there are 79 IBOs. 48 of them are at 100 PV. These IBOs will earn about $10 from Amway and perhaps a few bucks from selling items. If they are on the “system”, they will be shelling out about $150 to $200 a month on average for standing order, voicemail, functions, gas money, etc.
The layer above 100 PV are the people at 300 PV. In 6-4-2 there are 24 of them. These nice folks will make about $36 a month from Amway with the same expenses as the 100 PV folks.
So that’s 72 out of 79 people losinbg serious money month after month.
The first layer, or the folks who are the “6″ will make a little for break even and the one guy on the top will make a profit.
A diamond consists of 6 at least of these groups. As you have more platinums, you have more people losing money, if they are on the system.
Joecool / guest,
This is fun……guys. Joecool and guest, basic basic pricnciple of ANY BUSINESS:
First PROFIT has to be made. Companies like Walmart and other retailers are not here for CHARITY. Knowing this well, all you guys go OUT OF YOUR WAY to pay them the profit that they demand – and dont ask questions…..
When a company comes by and says “you generate volume” I will share the profit with you…..you guys say “WHAT! are you nuts….we DONT WANT any of your money”.
You guys will never understand the FACTS as they are…BLACK and WHITE…..HOW can one generate the volume ? by introducing your friends and family into this opportunty….but does this mean you TAKE their money ? How can people be so childish ??? I gave an example earlier (but went above the heads of these fine gentlemen)….You generate volume in Walmart etc and WHO makes money ? likes of Tiger Woods (a fine player and a gent mind you). Not just that, you guys tell your friends “go to Walmar – there is a deal going on there”…do you seriously think you are not generating volume for others ???
How many examples do you want before it sinks in ?
Your friend A: needs to buy toothbrush…..what difference if he buys from Walmart of from a shop in Timbucktoo ??? what is the DIFFERENCE ?
So why ask the question “tell me who is making money…..only then will I pay for this toothpaste” !!!!
When you understand this SIMPLE fact, you will realize why there are people from ALL WALKS of life who now realize how the money is made….NOT from my own friends/family/downline/upline but from the profit sharing with the company.
I need not defend Amway, for defending an 8 billion dollar company you will need a team of lawyers.
Lastly, dont you think that Grade-A companies like Barnes and Noble, Sears, American Airlines, Visa, All cell phone companies know SLIGHTLY better than you do ? They may not be as knowledgeable as you guys but have SOME SENSE ? Will they partner with Amway ?
And, guest, I had asked you if FORBES / TIME magazine was a scam ? you have not bothered to reply.
Cheers/Shekhhar
Since Amway has always fought against it’s own sleazy reputation, it seems that a common Amway tactic is to try to somehow associate itself with respectable brands. But the associations are always worded very vaguelly, like shkars, and seem to imply endorsement of Amway without outright saying it. Can anyone explain specifically what the relationships between the companies Shekar mentions and Amway? How have these companies endorsed Amway:
Barnes and Noble,
Sears,
American Airlines,
Visa,
FORBES
TIME magazine
IBM,
Microsoft,
DELL,
AT&T,
Dish Network
Tmobile
I don’t know but I suspect this is like trying to imply that GM, McDonald’s & the Beatles all endorsed Charles Manson because he once ate a cheeseburger while sitting in a Chevy with the Beatles on the radio.
Shekhar would ask: Could GM, McDonald’s & the Beatles all be wrong?
Hi Victim,
Now I know why you call yourself a “Victim” – it is quite evident.
If you did not understand my question, then I can elaborate it further…..but do not give stupid examples as Charles Manson…..I will tell YOU about the companies that I have mentioned.
Barnes and Noble, Tmobile, Dell, Dish, Ace Hardware, Sears, AA – have PARTNERED with Amway…..do you understand now ?????? Do you think these companies will “partner” with Ponzi schemes ? do you think they do not have lawyers to check a company out ? Do you think they will partner with a Scam ????
Tmobile writes off 12% of your MONTHLY bill “VICTIM”…..sprint/nextel write off 18%…..that is savings to us NOT TO YOU because you experience JOY and GLORY upon being a “VICTIM”.
Forbes has featured AMWAY and have called the owner of Amway a “REVOLUTIONAY MILLIONNAIRE” …….”victim”…..
If only you bothered to find out instead of wallowing in your “victimization”.
Time has given the back cover to Amway….try asking a SCAM company to have the back cover VICTIM!!!!!
Ha Ha.
Cheers/Shekahr
The difference between Amway and WalMart? Walmart is way cheaper for similar or same products on average.
If Satinique shampoo costs $9.00 for 10 ounces and I can get a similar shampoo from WalMart for $2.49, who care if I get a few more pennies from Amway to refer family and friend.s
Shekhar:
I could detect that you had a rare potential from your first comment – that you are a baby eagle surrounded by turkeys. Do not listen to these brainwashed infidels. They do not have the millionaire mindset like you and I! It’s sad but they have lost the ability to believe in opportunities too good to be true. But we Believe!
I would like to invite you to join one of my Billionaire-in-Training groups and to introduce you to the best mlm multilevel network marketing moneymaker ever conceived. Learn about it here:
Introduction to BELIEVE. Greatest Opportunity EVER!
Joecool, you are invited, too. We sell Believe shampoo – which is better than Satinique – for $1.99 as opposed to $9 Amway or WalMart for $2.49. And yet it nets our distributors $2.50 in profit. That’s the magic of Believe!
See you on the veranda!
Richard Quick, Esq.
FranWorst.com
How do you mak a net profit of $2.50 on a bottle of shampoo that sells for $1.99?
Does Richard Quick, Esq. still use the same law firm? — That is, the esteemed firm of Quick, Cheatham, and Hyde? I understand they are doing really well these days and have reduced their fees from $300 to $200 per hour because of the increase in business. Did this increase come about because they are now representing both franchisors and franchisees in a depressed market?
http://thegreatfranchisingrobbery.blogspot.com
Joe Cool writes How do you mak a net profit of $2.50 on a bottle of shampoo that sells for $1.99?
Volume, Joe. And cutting out the wasteful retailer/distributor/middleman and enabling our billionaire-in-training partners to sell direct to loved ones, coworkers and invalid neighbors. And many other success secrets you’ll learn from our program when you’re ready to leave your poverty, reason and logic behind and… Believe.
You didn’t watch the video, did you, Joe? Now that’s not cool.
Carol Cross writes: Does Richard Quick, Esq. still use the same law firm?
I am founding partner of the firm Quick, Duhk & Hyde. Yes, we have reduced our hourly rate during these tough economic times. We have also reduced the number of minutes in a billable hour to 37.
See you on the veranda!
Richard Quick, Esq.
http://www.franworst.com
I don’t need to watch the video. If you claim you are getting $2.50 “net” profit for selling a product that costs $1.99, then I call BS on you. Your supplier would be taking a loss for each bottle of shampoo that you sell.
Your “calling BS” on me might be upsetting if I weren’t gazing off the deck of my yacht as the sun sets on the coast of Nungwi, the island jewel just off the coast of Zanzibar, Tanzania. A bikinied twin types these words as her nubile sister fixes me a Mis-Taki, an exotic drink made from the fruits of endangered plants.
As a BELIEVE distributor, Shekhar may one day enjoy this view on deck with me. Yet Joecool won’t even watch the video. Unfortunate for Joe. And his family.
Joecool, you are a prisoner of rationality, logic and common sense. Free yourself from those shackles and… Believe.
See you on the veranda,
Billionaire Richard Quick, Esq.
Author, What is Success?
Guys,
Richard (billionaire) Quick, thanks for your offer to check out believe.
We believe firmly and loyally in Amway. Amway is the best opportunity ever. It is NOT a get rich quick scheme and pays for hard work.
We are getting sidetracked from Amway in this post.
Richard (billionaire) Quick, all the very best to you – but if you know what is best, it is Amwayglobal. No one else.
Cheers/shekhar
I’m sitting in the Bahamas sipping a cool one. Everytime I write blog entries, the cash rolls in.
There are many paths to wealth, but Amway hasn’t been one since the 1970s (Yes, Shekhar, that was me you quoted in your Amway convention story.) Those who followed my links from here discovered QuickCo’s many paths to wealth, including such franchises as iSTOLE It: eBay auctions, BUDGET BRIDES: Love 4 Less!, Enviro-Ad product placement (formerly Mr. Litterbug), and STARBUSKJ Cofe ‘N’ ROP. We welcome the future millionaires who have adopted the “Believe & Succeed” mentality and abandoned the everyday pragmatism, common sense and so-called “sound judgement” that restricts so many to the suffocating confines of “reality.”
Do not criticize nor pity joecool. My tech department tells me he is posting not from the Bahamas but from a small apartment in Terra Haute with the shades drawn and a pile of bills at his front door. And that is OK. Not every child grows up to be an astronaut… or a billionaire… or even financially solvent. And that is OK. For there to be us Yins, there must be Yangs.
The triplets are calling from the helipad on C Deck, so I must bid adieu.
See you on the veranda!
Millionaire Richard Quick, Esq.
Mr. Quick:
Blatant business solicitation is not allowed in the comment sections. Please consider this your first warning.
As a reminder, the topic is “Is Amway a Scam?”
Actually Mr. Quick, I sell shampoo for 50 cents a bottle. Because of my high volume, I get paid $7.50 for each bottle I sell. I am sitting on a beach in Hawaii with a laptop sipping a Corona while I tap out this message on my laptop.
I have no debts. Aloha!
Shekar said:
- Is FORBES a scam ?
No, but Forbes said Amway was a scam.
- Is Time magazine a scam ?
No, but they didn’t say Amway was a good opportunity.
- if Tmobile is partnering with Amway, is Tmobile a scam ?
Amway partnered with Enron and Worldcom. Enron and Worldcom were scams.
- if Visa is partnering with Amway, is Tmobile a scam ?
If Enron and Worldcom were csmas and partnered with Amway, is AMway a scam?
- if a NASA scientist has given up HIS job and made millions in Amway, is HE a scam ?
He might not be a scam, but he probably made millions from his downline instead of from an employer.
- Are all those Doctors, Engineers, Laywers, Software professionals, FINANCIAL CONSULANTS who are raking in money in Amway, are THEY a scam
They may not be a scam, but they could make more money in their professions than from Amway.
Joecool,
Finally you have responded to my questions – and I can only praise your negative mindset and utter hatred for something which is quite simple. All your statement are blatant lies calculated to misguide the general public.
You say Forbes has saie “Amway was a scam”. Please check Forbes issue of October 18, 2009, pages: 182 – it has called the owner of Amway Richard DeVos as a “Revolutionary Billionaire” with the likes of Mark Zuckerberg and Steve Jobs (know who they are PAL ?????? Do you call this “Forbes has said Amway was a scam”?????? Grow up.
NOW, TELL ME ONE REASON WHY YOU ARE HELL BENT ON TELLING / SPREADING LIES ????
You say Time magazine did’t say Amway was a good opportunity.
I NEVER said Time said that. What did I say ? Will a magazine like TIME give the back cover to a SCAM ???????
Tmobile incident – I have no inclination to find out if Amway partnered with Enrom and Worldcom (please send me proof like I did about Forbes). But admit that you purchased from Circuit City right ? now that has gone bankrupt – does that make you associating with Bankrupt companies ??????
NASA scientist episode.
People like you never want to admit that you other people like Tiger Woods, all famous film stars, Radio Hosts who are SELLING you stuff are making money from YOU!!!!! So the question of “making money from downline” is an ALLTIME LIE calculated to misguide other people and make them stupid. Do you go to Walmart and ask them “Tell me who is making before I pay you ?????” they why do you ask ONLY in the case of Amway ? Because you DO NOT understand the concept and it is good that we are not having to associate with people like you. We ARE finding intelligent people PAL!!
You say Doctors, engineers, etc make more money in their profession!!! Good for you. Please stay where you are. DO NOT go after Amway – you may find yourself richer than your wildest dreams – and ofcourse YOU DO NOT want that now, do you ?????
Cheers/Shekhar
Joecool,
In my excitement that people like you have NO CLUE what Amway is all about, I have made some spelling mistakes in my earlier post – apologies.
Thing is, you just cannot say “Amway is a scam”. Prove it. I will prove it to you that it is the best opportunity ever and that people hate Amway for NO REASON. Just because SOMEONE ELSE hates it, they do too….When people like you find out that there is hard work involved, you cry foul and say negative things about Amway.
You might wonder why a person like me is literally wasting time with you. My biggest grouse is that you guys are giving a GOOD opportunity a bad name without any rhyme or reason and spreading rumors. Ask yourself:
Will you take advise from a person who:
- has failed (not just in amway, in any/all areas of life).
- has succeeded in SOME area but is NOT willing to share with you
his secret of success.
OR
from a person who:
- has succeeded in what he does and is WILLING to teach you how to succeed.
Read some good books pal, grow up. If not, please do not badmouth Amway.
Cheers/Shekhar
Guys,
I am in the mood to back-bash today – grrrr – so beware!!! ha ha.
I completely forgot to respond to one “Victim” (is it any wonder why he calls himself that…he will ALWAYS remain a victim, of his job, of his boss, of his family, of his fincances – sorry folks, lets take a vacation after 2 years) who asked this “Question” HOW have companies like Barnes and Noble, At&T, Tmobile, Dell etc endorsed Amway”.
Simple – my dear Watson.
Do you think that these companies have a team of lawyers who will check out ALL THE FACTS about ANY company they associate with ???? Or do you think their lawyers are stupid and not as intelligent as you ???????? Answer me please.
When these fine companies partner with Amway is it NOT endorsing ? otherwise why partner ? One more time – hope this sinks in at least now – else, PLEASE STOP your foulmouthing Amway….OK ? – When I purchase goods from these fine manufacturers, they PAY me good money !!! You may NOT want money when you buy at Walmart – but I most certainly do!!! Tmobile gives me a clean 12% discount EACH MONTH – kapisch????
So please do not try to TELL LIES again ok and misguide the fine public.
cheers/Shekhar
I searched Forbes for stories on Amway. Here’s some of what I found:
“The rebranding strategy doesn’t always work. In 1999, multilevel marketer Amway changed its name to Quixtar in North America. In doing so, Amway hoped to tap into the e-commerce boom with a tech-y sounding name. It also tried to distance itself from the shady associations that dogged the company.” “Companies Seek A Fresh Start With New Names” Forbes 08.20.09
“Roger Lareau, a Michigan alarm company employee, says his wife has rung up $20,000 in debt buying Team sales tools and Amway products… Their marriage has fallen apart as a result.” “Climb to the Top” Forbes 07.17.08
“Woodward quickly realized how important sales tools are to multilevel marketers. Tools encourage recruits to reject doubters and, if money fails to materialize, to blame themselves and keep trying. Tools can themselves be a gold mine. That was a lesson Woodward learned from Dexter Yager, a former beer salesman and Amway distributor who set up a highly successful sales tools business.” “Climb to the Top” Forbes 07.17.08
“…a report Amway produced for a top distributor indicating that a mere 3.4% of its U.S. products are sold to unaffiliated users.” “Climb to the Top” Forbes 07.17.08
“A U.S. District Court in Cincinatti announced Tuesday that Procter & Gamble … had won a jury award of $19.25 million… in a civil lawsuit filed against four former Amway distributors accused of spreading false rumors linking the company to Satanism to advance their own business…. Amway distributors allegedly revived the rumors in 1995, using a voice-mail system to tell thousands of customers that Procter & Gamble profits went to support Satanic cults. Procter & Gamble’s suit was based on the Lanham Act, which prohibits unfair competition and false advertising.” “The Devil Didn’t Make Them Do It” Forbes 03.22.07
The references to DeVos alluded to by Shekhar were not endorsements, but mere statements of the wealth he accumulated from deluded individuals like Shekhar. Just because the people at the top make billions doesn’t mean the peasants will get more than scraps of bread.
I’m sure if you dig deep enough you’ll find some reference in a puff Forbes piece that says Amway (and Meleleuca, Mary Kay, and other cults for suckers) is legit. Why? Because Forbes, like all biz mags, survives on advertising… they are, after all, a capitalist tool.
Hi Victim,
My friend, you are doing the same mistake that many other people who think they are smart and know better – basically know-all types:
- YOU HAVE SEARCHED THE WEB – you have NOT conducted RESEARCH.
For researching something you need to go to authentic sites.
Example: I put up a website and say that “xxx cheated me of 100K US Dollars”.
then you google “xxx” the name of the person – what will you find ????
Google is a search engine and not a RESEARCH engine.
It is like a toilet bulletin board.
Had I not had 100% conviction about a 8 Billion dollar company which disburses 42 cents for every US Dollar to it’s IBO’s I would have gone ahead and purchased the Fobres magazine you (MIS) Quoted.
By the way, check your facts, there is no issue dated 8.11.08 as you say!!!!
Then in the end you say, it is a “Capitalist tool” – my friend, that is the beauty of this greatest country on earth! I cannot buy something with “love” – I cannot go to your Walmart and say “I love Walmart” – to pay for my groceries!!!
Every one needs cash – money – dinero !!
If you want to be a socialist – FINE – but why badmouth AMWAY.
Guys, I keep repeating my questions, WHY DO YOU BADMOUTH AMWAY when you have NO CLUE what it is, how it works.
I gave you the page number AND the magazine edition as proof, please do not be vague when you quote a resource.
Now you are implying that the great Forbes is a scam (under same logic, EVERYTHING is a scam).
Come on “Victim” – do your own research – how can you feel proud to be called a VICTIM ? Why not strive to be a VICTOR ? Why be a COUPENEE instead of becoming a COUPONER????
BUT PLS DO NOT MISQUOTE AND MISGUIDE THE PUBLIC.
Cheers/Shekhar
What I always find interesting about folk like “victim” is their blatant selective quoting. They quote a Forbes article on Woodward – but neglect to mention Woodward was kicked out of Amway for bad business practices. They quote a figure on Amway’s percent of “outside customer” sales from that same article – but fail to mention Amway said the figure was wrong.
Here’s a nice video – Respected People, Respect Amway – it includes, amongst others, Rich Karlgaard, the published of Forbes, saying nice things about Amway. Readers may also want to reflect on This (incomplete) list of the many, many independent awards and recognitions Amway and Amway products have won around the world.
As I wrote back in April last year Amway is not a scam but you can still be scammed. “Victim” may have had one of those experiences. It’s a shame he doesn’t really how BIG Amway is, and how his experience may not be universal.
Ibofightback,
Yes, people like Victim celebrate being victims.
They search Google, find some bad things posted by some bad apple who found out that Amway is not a get rich quick scheme and then starts posting bad things about Amway…..the quote from Forbes is also fictitious.
Wonder why people STILL want to listen to the likes of Victim and THINK that Amway is not legit……what proof more guys ? 8 Billion Dollar Company located in Michigan for heavens sakes, not some underground outfit….
So quit trashing Amway VICTIM – if you wish to remain Victim – so be it.
Maybe I am wasting my breath and time here but like I said if ONE person benefits from this then I will be happy.
Cheers/Shekhar
ibofightback, A few points:
1) The context of my selective quoting was as a response to Shekhar’s inane claims that everyone from Microsoft to Time Magazine to Forbes to Sully Sullenberger are publicly endorsing Amway. He contends Forbes magazine loves Amway and asks “Is Forbes a scam?”
He points to a Forbes article as if it’s a validation of Amway at the IBO level. But the article is just about how rich DeVos has gotten off the trained monkeys like Shekhar. My admittedly one-sided quotes were to demonstrate that it’s a freaking magazine, not consumer reports or Ralph Nader’s newsletter. Forbes reports the good bad and ugly, but they do so in a way that will not lose Amway, Mary Kay, etc.as advertisers.
And in the end, who cares what a for-profit mag says about one of its advertisers?
Part of what gives Amway a bad name is deceptive BS arguments like this, when the Shekharites try to kid themselves that Amway can gain legitimacy by associating the name with respected brands.
2) The quoted articles are interesting in that they demonstrate that there have been and most likely are a lot of unethical scumbags within the upper ranks of Amway. Woodward came up thru and operated in conjunction with Amway for years. The PG libel was done by Amway distributors. You contend Amway is not a scam but its members might scam you. Since Amway is made up almost entirely of members, what’s the difference?
3) Why does Amway have a bad reputation? Because of people like Shekhar. He’s been trying to sell for a year and hasn’t made any money. No doubt he’s annoyed all the people who have turned him down – ex-friends, family co-workers. He keeps buying crap, singing the company song, and getting worse off financially. Every one on the outside can see how this works but him.
Amway can deny the report that most of the purchases are made to the Shekhars of the world and not unaffiliated users, but most people’s experience confirms that fact.
victim, are you an American? I’m not. I’ve met some American’s who are ***holes and crooks though. Does that make you an ***hole and a crook? Woodward was an Amway Executive Diamond – there are *thousands* of Amway Executive Diamonds – and there are millions of Amway business owners. One would have to be incredibly naive or a complete idiot to think there aren’t some dishonest or just plain stupid people in their somewhere.
As for endorsements, if any company *publicly* partners with another company then it is indeed an endorsement of that company. No company wants to publicly link itself with a disreputable firm. Virtually every week companies come out with press releases advertising their services and list Amway as one of their major clients – they’re using the fact they have Amway as a customer to advertise their own services! Do you really think they’d do that if Amway had the reputation you believe?
Several years ago the University of Westminster undertook a global survey of peoples attitude towards direct selling companies. Virtually all of the companies they included in the survey were MLMs, and Amway was one of them. Do you know what they found? People who had actual experience with a company, it’s reps. or it’s products had positive views of the industry. People with negative opinions tended to be people who had no direct experience but had based their opinions on hearsay. Sure there’s been people with bad experiences, but given the millions of people who have been involved with Amway over the years there’s remarkably few negative reports around.
I wonder were you fit in? You claim to be a “victim” yet also claim Shekhar is “buying crap” – I assume you’re referring to Amway products. Anyone who has actually used Amway products know they are far from “crap” – they’re some of the best in the world – I’ve already provided a link to many of the awards they have won.
So how much of what you are saying is your personal knowledge and experience, and how much is simply repeating what you’ve heard from others?
Shekhar claims that what the “great Forbes” (his words) has to say about Amway is gospel and defines the credibility of the organization and opportunity.
In my comment above, I gave direct quotes of Forbes’ reporting of Amway’s attempt to change its name due to its negative reputation, the tools scam, the P&G smear campaign, failed IBOs, and the claim that only 3% of purchases are made by real, unaffiliated customers.
You’re right Shekhar. People should judge Amway by what Forbes says about it. Here’s what Forbes says about Amway:
“One must turn outside the world of business – to religion and politics – to find people who work as hard for as little financial reward as most Amway people do.”
“It has made a very few people very rich while paying its foot soldiers more in inspiration than in cash.”
“Some Amway people do become affluent, even rich. But not many of them. ”
“The lion’s share of money earned by Amway distributors is pocketed by 2% of the sales force”
“As with any army, the recruits are expendable. Nearly half… will drop out in the course of the year.”
“The average foot soldier doesn’t make much money for his or her efforts.”
Source: “The Power of Positive Inspiration” Forbes Magazine – December 9, 1991 http://www.amquix.info/forbes_december_9_1991.html
Shekhar writes: “check your facts, there is no issue dated 8.11.08 as you say!!!!”
“‘Climb to the Top/ Emily Lambert and Klaus Kneale
Forbes Magazine dated August 11, 2008″
http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2008/0811/050.html
Is Forbes a scam? No. We better take their word for it: Amway makes a few richer and many, many poorer.
Shekhar:
You (and ibofightback) try to sound all logical and factual, but people considering joining Amway want to know one thing:
You joined Amway a year ago. How much $$$ have you made?
What are your sales? What have you spent in fees, products, tools, etc?
Simple questions. Answer them.
Victim,
I keep repeating myself – there is absolutely no mystery why you call yourself a “Victim”. I missed the article where you claim that I have made inane claims and just because you KNOW that I am telling the truth, you call me names. But this is a free country/world – everyone can have their opinions.
Why would the “Freaking” Forbes magazine – your words – worry about losing any company as an Advertiser ???? You think you know all about magazines and advertising. Do you think Forbes – which you say report good bad and ugly – should also say AT LEASE SOME GOOD things about the billionaire scamster Madoff – who knows he might advertise in their magazine – right ? if this your logic – dont you think it is SKEWED ? If Forbes has said something good about Amway – admit is VICTIM – they mean it.
In your logic if A = B and B = C then A = Z!!! (not A = C) This is the difference between intelligent people like you and idiots like me. What is the difference you say, since Amway is made up of members. In your job, everyone is an employee, if you cheat someone, then the company is cheating!!! it is scam!!! Come on!!!
OK, I made a mistake when I said there is no issue dated 8.11.08. (most likely I was looking for an issue dated 8th Novermber instead). Fine, but Woodward is the scamster and not Amway – example, if you work in a good caompany say ABC. Then you cheat someone of say large amount of money. Does that make YOU a scamster or the company ? Is this logic hard to understand ? Beats me!
People like you always have one mission – find something remotely negative about Amway and grab that to shout from rooftops that Amway is a scam. Slowly people are realizing that people like you are misguiding them. They are realizing that they are being misinformed and are embracing Amway. That is what is hurting people like you!
We have given you facts, examples – based on logic and truthful.
What is the harm in being a “member” ???? I keep repeating my example.
A celebrity endorses a product. They get paid billions of dollars. where is that money coming from ? Do you seriously think that that money is NOT going for your pocket and that the celebrity is NOT making money from his/her DOWNLINE ??? Are you freaking serious ????
When you buy stuff at Walmart/Costco, you guys dont bother to ask “who is making money ?” then WHY are you asking this question from Amway ???? Is this logical ? is this fair arguement ? The company shares profits from volume with the people, whereas in YOUR WORLD, the company pays the celebrity. Then you are fine. As long as SOMEONE YOU KNOW is not making money you are good. That is the reason you will remain where you are. This kind of thought process that “If I dont make money that is fine, I love to stay poor but YOU should not make money – that is more important” will keep you a VICTIM.
Remain a Victim, VICTIM!!
I choose not to.
Cheers/Shekhar
Shekhar:
Answer guest’s questions.
- not a victim (formerly victim)
Shekhar… We’re waiting for your logical, truthful, factual answer.
Yes, Shekhar. We’re waiting.
….. Silence …..
victim and “guest” – have you ever founded and started a business? If you did, had any of them returned 100% of your investment and started reaching profitability in only a year?
It’s a rare business that does – even when people are focussed full time on it.
Why do you think this business should be miraculously different?
I know the answer – you don’t think it should be miraculously different. You know it takes time to develop a profitable business – you’re not asking such a stupid, ignorant question because you’re stupid or ignorant – you’re asking it in the hope that people ignorant of what’s “normal” in business will read it and think badly of the Amway business. In reality having a business where you’re not spending hundreds or even thousands a month a year after starting is doing very well!
But I’m sure you knew that.
We’re still waiting, Shekhar…
Have you sold anything to anyone but yourself?
(This is getting embarrassing.)
I picked up eight new non-IBO customers last month alone. They’ve all expressed delight in the products, two of them have already ordered more things, and three of them have expressed interest in becoming IBOs, two primarily to get the products cheaper …. hmm ….. though …. I guess I should I tell them they can’t join, since anonymous idiots on the internet tell me that if they get the products direct, cheaper, than that would actually make them victims of a scam! Nobody wants to be scammed – clearly they’d be better off paying more and remaining as “real consumers” … right? :-/
The loss rates for near all Amway IBO’s is not mentioned in the above “positive”
posts. I was a high level leader in Amway for nearly a decade when I discovered massive fraud and deceptions.
See http://merchantsofdeception.com/mod/wordpress (global victim statements current through this year from multiple lines of sponsorship in many nations) or http://www.merchantsofdeception.com for reality based details.
The documentation seems to clearly support that results for for the vast majority of all IBO’s has been that they:
1) Lose money
2) Quit or lose more money
3) Get replaced be a new consumer investor who will also in turn most likely lose their money.
4). The cycle continues
Hi guest and Victim.
Looks like you guys are glued to this blog to learn more and more about Amway and are now cursing yourself for letting this opportunity pass by – like I did in previous 4 attempts. It is still not to late….ha ha.
Unlike you – we are extremely busy…..
By the way, I have answered you so many times, when you run out of arguments all you harp on is “how much $$$” – like I said, sorry but none of your business.
Does that answer you ? Like I said, I am in this biz. Whether you like it or not, whether you are jealous or not, whether you pity me or not, whether you admire me or not…who cares.
Cheers/Shekhar
Hi Eric,
So we have a new entrant in this debate….apparently he is SENIOR by 10 years and has “lost” money….ch…ch…ch……
Eric, if you read our previous posts, we do not browse the internet sites like the ones you suggested…internet is like a TOILET BULLETIN Board……
Cheers/Shekhar
Ibofightback,
We have a new “guest” Eric, He says he “lost money” ….so now it is convenient to blame Amway right ?
Guest and Victim (what apt names) want to listen to the likes of Eric, I told them,
one must listen to people who are successful in their field AS WELL AS they are WILLING to teach you how to succeed in the same field….but no, that does not make sense right. It is very convenient to take advise from your room partners who borrows your milk, does not pay rent on time, shares your car….OR they want to listen to the likes of Eric who on their own accord are a failure.
Cheers/Shekhar
That’s Eric Scheibeler, he’s been spamming pretty much everywhere trying to sell his “new” book which is actually an old book he’s been giving away for free for 5 years or something.
Eric – Amway critics always ask supporters to publish their “financials” – profit and loss statements etc. I’m curious why you never published yours in order to support your claims? Founders Emerald have an average Amway income of over $70,000/yr – what were you spending so much money on to be so unprofitable? What was your business structure? Curious minds would like to know …
I’m also curious how you managed to get all the way to Pearl and never learn how the Pearl bonus worked? I learned the basics, such as the fact it starts extremely small, in my first LOA training meeting before I’d even joined Amway – yet you say in your book that as a new Pearl you were shocked to see how small the bonus was! How could you have been shocked? Did you really know that little about the Amway compensation plan?
Just asking ….
Hi Ibofightback,
I see…..interesting.
What I have seen is that there are people who THINK that they can make more money (human beings are avaracious – never satisfied) if they start their OWN SYTESM!!!
Then when they realize that it is not easy and involves a lot of hard work and investment, they are forced to give it up….that is when they start yelling from roof tops “Amway is a scam and I have lost money”…..well…who asked them to spend money in the first place!!!
Cheers/Shekhar
I’m not going to waste a lot of time commenting here but I will say this. A lot of the reason people fail is because they do not have the training and mentorship from awesome coaches. There are 26 training systems in being associated with Amway. There is also being an IBO without the training systems. All I can comment on is the World Wide Dreambuilder training system and it’s an amazing system. With the right coaching and mentorship this can work. Is this easy? NO, I won’t lie about it. It’s not a get rich quick thing, it’s a work your ass off for 2-3 years and then you’ll get your financial independence. Does it cost money? YES. All business cost money however you don’t need a loan or a million dollars to buy into it. Will you loose your shirt? Not sure how you can since there is a 180 day money back on ANYTHING. Are you asked to commit to going to functions? Yeah. Think of it the exact same as going on a business trip to a conference or for training however MUCH cheaper. So really nothing to much different from your regular business just a hell of a lot cheaper with a much greater success rate IF you are willing to put some time in and be honest with yourself.
There is no real use in fighting with all the other people, this is my opinion this is what i’ve experienced so far in the business.
iboFightBack wrote: “… less than 1% go on to make any decent income…”
xpiditonoftruth wrote: “It’s not a get rich quick thing, it’s a work your ass off for 2-3 years and then you’ll get your financial independence. Does it cost money? YES.”
OK I think I get it. 99% of Amway ibos are the Shekhars of the world, who play entrepreneur by buying and consuming Amway stuff and pretending they have a business. There are 26 “training systems” with names like “World Wide Dreambuilder” that sell them “tools” and sales stuff for the 2-3 years before they run out of steam.
People who are really good at spinning the hype, like ibofb, keep them on the line by telling them that the 99%+ failure rate is “entirely fair and equitable because less than 1% put in the consistent work over time necessary.” Of course, the Shekars all are willing to put in the time and money – no one tells them they’ve got to have sales and lying talent. 1% of those are good enough liars to rise to the next level and recruit more Shekhars.
Read through his comments and anyone could see that Shekhar is nothing but an Amway donor. While ibofb is slick and unflappable as Jerry Falwell, Shekhar is transparent and contradicts himself. He has had NO sales after a year of work and is foolish enough to let that be known. I’m sure he has alienated all friends & family who will never buy from him. And he is really really bad at covering his lies (for instance he posts here and elsewhere that he joined Amway in March 2009 Yet he has an Amway blog dated December, 2007 http://cskulkarni.wordpress.com/)
xpiditonoftruth is not much further along on the financial front. He/she promises financial independence after 3-4 years, while posting whopping checks of as much as $279.00 for a month. Amazing!
It seems clear that from the masked man iboFightBack’s statements for 99% plus Amway is just a discount buying program for self-purchases and a business for fewer than 1%.
Another thing that always astounds me about many Amway critics is their incredible arrogance. “guest” here has unilaterally decided to label masses of people “failures” because they haven’t reached some arbitrary definition of “success” that “guest” gets to decide. If somebody joins Amway to get better pricing – and gets exactly that – by what right do you get to judge them a failure?
ibofightback / xpiditonoftruth,
Exactly!
My problem and biggest grouse is that these so-called self-gurus think all “Amway people” are being cheated which is so very far from truth. They also portray themselves as “know-all” and “smart” and trash “That Amway” at any given opportunity!
Mr “guest”, you call USD 279/- whopping – of course in a derogatory manner (Don’t know WHERE these guys get such figures)!! can you tell me do you get even that kind of money every month from Walmart/Costco ????
Like I said, whether you like it or not….whether you are jealous or not….whether……you get the point “guest”.
Cheers/Shekhar
ibofb you write ““guest” here has unilaterally decided to label masses of people “failures” because they haven’t reached some arbitrary definition of “success””
If Amway is a consumer buying club, then call it that. CostCo, Sam’s Club, BJs, DirectBuy members aren’t failures because they don’t join with the expectation of “financial freedom.”
You promote Amway as a route to financial freedom, yet you acknowledge that fewer than 1% even make any money much less reach financial freedom. If 99% started a business venture and didn’t achieve even profitability, then they are failures. Nothing arbitrary about that.
The IRS states that if an owner does not turn a profit in 3 years, it is not a business… it’s a hobby.
The thing that amazes me about many pro-Amway people is how they’ve created a mindset in which it’s ok to lie. Amway’s attacked as a biz opp & you say no, it’s a buying club. Restaurant owners with no customers don’t say they’re successful because they get to eat their own inventory for free.
And Shekhar claims he only joined Amway in March 2009 but started his Amway website in Dec. 2007. Shekhar has given credence to the old joke:
Q. How can you tell if an Amway salesman’s lying?
A. His lips are moving
That was just one check we got that month and I believe in my post I made that clear. There were other bonus checks we got as well.
Right now with just that one check it pays for my business’s operating costs plus profit. So just on that point alone, that one small cheque my operationsl costs are covered. So I ask the people who say they loose thousands, WHERE? Obviously if you are loosing thousands you are not following the 10 steps of core or listening to your mentors. Which comes down to the part I said about the training system. Where people fail is without the training and mentorship.
Again like you’ve seen in my blog it’s all MY OPINIONS and FACTS about what i’ve done.
xpiditonoftruth wrote “That was just one check we got that month and I believe in my post I made that clear. ”
That’s true, and I was wrong to lump you in with Shekhar. In fact, I respect the fact that you posted the modest check amounts on your blog. And I was wrong to say all Amway people are liars (just, imho, many. Maybe most). You are proof that some people have the fortitude and ethics to provide the reality along with the dreams and hype.
Unfortunately, xpiditonoftruth, you seem to be in the minority. Commenter Shekhar has been posting here since March about his best friend making $250K a year, 5 couples he knows making $5K+ per month and another friend giving her daughters new BMWs for their 16th birthdays. Yet he lies about how long he has been in and refuses to give any information about HIS sales or expenses. It seems clear that he is his only customer.
How do people lose thousands? It’s a good question. My guess is that people like Shekhar, who have none of the required sales ability or people skills, are so desperate to believe anyone can do it that they keep buying all the tools and programs that the guys who are making money put in front of them.
For skilled salespeople like ibofightback, they are easy marks. And people like ibofb openly acknowledge that fewer than 1% will ever make money, but can somehow justify selling to the 99% destined for failure. I am constantly amazed at their ability to justify their own acts of greed. It’s like selling to the retarded or emotionally vulnerable.
Amway and Enron/Worldcom partners?
Link: http://www.amquix.info/mickey_mouse_business.html
Most people who join Amway do not turn a profit. Most people who join Amway and buy the teaching materials and give an honest effort do not make a profit.
Many uplines are greedy and will tell you that teaching materials are the key to your success. There’s no bonafide evidence that teaching materials help you progress in Amway. That is the scam.
ibofightback wrote: “As for endorsements, if any company *publicly* partners with another company then it is indeed an endorsement of that company. No company wants to publicly link itself with a disreputable firm. ”
Go to http://www.amquix.info/mickey_mouse_business.html, scroll to the bottom to see the Enron/Amway partnership brochure.
Interesting article, too:
“Even before Amway changed its name to Quixtar, Amway had teamed up with Enron to market electricity…Amway even partnered with MCI/Worldcom to market telephone services. So despite all of Amway’s crack attorneys and due diligence, they still managed to team up with the two companies that were involved in the world’s largest business frauds. So what does that say about distributors’ claims about corporations doing their due diligence? It doesn’t say a whole lot.”
Enron. Worldcom. Amway. Partners in Integrity.
(Can’t wait to hear how they spin this one)
http://www.amquix.info/Amway_abuses.html
It really is sad that people have to lie, we are building our business on integrity and truths and if you want that you can check my blog out. I’m telling it like it is and boy do I have an uphill battle. Are we the minority? Maybe but we are doing the honest effort and will be successful.
One point about tools, nobody has ever told us we HAVE to buy tools. There is no mandatory amount you have to spend. What we buy is what we think will help us. Does our upline make suggestions, yes, but they don’t say YOU HAVE TO BUY THIS. I personally think some of the books and digital delivery we’ve purchased is very valuable. And to be honest a lot of it isn’t far off from what I buy at my regular day job. In fact a lot of the books are EXACTLY the same. Does that make the corporation I work for a bunch of tool scamers?
Anyway I highly encourage people who want to know the truth and a real honest opinion read my blog. I don’t care about traffic or what not, I only care about sharing the truth as I’ve seen it.
xpiditonoftruth wrote: “It really is sad that people have to lie”
I agree. I think that most Amway members’ acceptance of deception is why they’ve constantly got to defend the reputation. For years they would lie to people and say that it wasn’t an Amway presentation, then they’d find out it was. Than they tried to say Quixtar wasn’t Amway, but it was. They try to say all these big names endorse them, but they’re just purchasers. And they won’t be honest about the failure rates or earning rates.
Hey, if it’s really just a buying club and a feel-good entrepreneur’s group that you might make a few bucks off, or pay for your trip to the convention just say so… don’t be dropping references to friends earning $250K doing nothing like this tool Shekhar – and hide the fact you’ve sold nothing.
I wish you luck, xpiditonoftruth. As for Shekhar and IboFightBack, they seem to have left the building. Figures. Making Amway salesmen like them face the truth is like holding a cross up to a vampire.
guest,
Your presumptions and vicious nature is now started getting into my normally jovial nature. You have taken for granted and presumed as you have ALWAYS appeared to have done – especially where Amway is concerned – that we have “left the building”. I am truthful when I told you when I started the biz. But you went to some website and “PRESUMED” and intelligent that you think you are, you put 2 and 2 together – laughing at your ingenuity. I dont owe you any explanation. Like I said, our only endeavor is for people (who must be seeing this blog) the stupidity of people who THINK they know everything and trash Amway – thinking “Oh Yeah, I KNOW – Amway is an MLM, it is a pyramid…..all stupid asusmptions.
You need not tell us not to “Drop” references. We do not expect you to believe it – it is not meant for you – it is meant for people to see through your vicious nature – “if I dont make money, OK, but YOU should not make money”.
We are busy people and despite our busy schedule we try to spread cheer and the good word around.
Again, if you dont like Amway – GOOD because people like us do not want to work with you. Why do you make me repeat….stay where you are….just dont trash Amway OK ?
Cheers/Shekhar
Shekhar writes “we try to spread cheer and the good word around”
No, you spread dishonesty. You claim your best friend makes $250K thru Amway, that you know more than 5 couples that make about $2500 per month, that you know a woman who bought BMWs for her 16 yr old daughters. Yet you refuse to admit that you have worked since 2007 and have not made any money. Why not just be honest and say some, like you, work hard and don’t make a penny.
Shekhar writes: “I am truthful when I told you when I started the biz. But you went to some website and “PRESUMED” ”
In your comment above, March 6 2009 you wrote that you just joined Amway.
Yet this blog about your involvement with Amway is dated December, 2007. http://cskulkarni.wordpress.com/
Are you seriously saying this is not your blog, that someone else told the same story with the same misspellings and bad grammar and you both sign “Cheers/Shekhar”"
That’s not you? Seriously?
What is truly scary is how many IBOs will fiercely defend Amway, regardless of whether or not they have enjoyed any success. Secondarily, upline will teach you that you “need” the system to succeed, and success is credited to the system. They then turn around and tell you that any shortcoming is personal responsibility, even if that IBO did everything they were taught.
Shekhar, if you know of 5 people making 250,000, that’s great. I assume that kind of income is diamond level or higher. Many diamond businesses have 1000 or more people. That means these folks are helping nearly 5000 people to lose money so they can enjoy that success. Do the math. a handfull of successful people with the majority making $10 a month or less. Factor in the cost of functions, voicemail, website fees, standig order and the group suffers tremendous losses.
For those unfamiliar with Amway acronyms, IBO is short for “I’m Bending Over.”
guest, joecool, “Former victim”,
guest, like I said, I owe you no explanation. So be quiet.
I said you have “PRESUMED” and you have! People like you can never bring cheer and spread goodwill about anything. So be prepared to remain what / where you are.
Joecool, In your last post, you have mentioned “factor in functions, website fees” etc, you make it sound like it is thousands of dollars which it is not. I have not “suffered tremendous losses” as you call it. Whether you believe it or not I dont care.
Former victim – you will remain a victim – in life and in the job.
You guys will never understand the biz – and it is good because we want NOTHING to do with the likes of you – maybe Joecool would be a sensible candidate.
Joecool, you appear to be the coolest of the lot. Was my explanation above so difficult to undersand ? YOu said “That means these folks are helping nearly 5000 people to lose money so they can enjoy that success”. Joecool, whether the “downlines” buy from Amway or from Walmart WHAT is the difference ? So how can we say that the “uplines” are making money from us ??? Did I not explain that when you buy something at Walmart, SOMEONE is making money. Example, do you hear Talk radio ? the guys are selling everything from Freecreditreport, to Gotomymeeting etc…..are you not paying them when you buy one of these things ? Amwy will make sense when something as simple as this sinks in.
My objective was to make people realize the poison, vicious rumors and the way you trash something without even knowing fully what the heck it is all about.
I feel my arguments above will suffice. I have no more to say on this topic – and continue to waste time. Unlike you guys, I have a busy schedule and I was stealing time to visit this blog from time to time.
Hopefully some folks will see thru your false rumors and make a difference in their lives.
You guys have a job and so do I – but I have SOMETHING additional which you donot have and THAT folks is the basic difference.
Cheers and wishing you Happy Holidays.
Adios.
Shekhar
Shekhar,
I know that website fees, standing order and function might cost $150 a month or so. But these materials are often the main profit center for some upline. Yourupline not only gets a cut from your volume, but then they also make a significant income from the tools. Technically your sponsor is supposed to train you for free. And it certainly dispels the myth about upline not profiting until you succeed.
A diamond with say 1000 “active” downline might make $100,000 a month (1000 x 100) while earning significantly less from Amway. And the tools money is secretive. Have you seen a written tools contract? I bet not.
The difference between WalMart and Amway is that Walmart is has cheaper products and Walmart doesn’t tell you that you can be welthy by shoppwing at Walmart and Walmart doesn’t sell you materials to teach you how to shop at Walmart.
Why is it that when you do the research the average monthly income for 98 % of the personal IBO owners is 80.00 per month its only the top 2 % that is making more then 80.00 Per month per Nightline’s report a pretty creditable source like the was. Post! I have been pitch Amway by several different people and every time I ask someone to show me the proof there making money I get 100 different excuses why they will not. I am a show me type of person if ONE person that is telling me how great Amway is , could show me a pay check stub on there income made by selling Amway then watch out all aboard I will go 100 % all in!!!!! I will bust my but to make it happen but after 6 diffent people that have not shown me any results I am a little nervous about drinking the cool aid! Also Every time I ask question I am being negative and not chasing the dream…… Questions do not = Negative it’s just someone that wants the facts before they invest? Do most people do research and ask qu estions on a job interview????? Then why would you not ask question about something you’re putting you name and your family involved in like they would expect you to?
Jack,
They won;t show you because they aren;t making any money. Only a fraction of 1% make any serious money in Amway. What many IBOs will do is wave around a copy of a check from their upline. Even a check is not proof of success because of business expenses. There are diamonds losing their homes to foreclosure and a prominent diamond in bankruptcy proceedings as we speak. Do the math and you can see. The average diamond, according to Amway, earns $147,000. Take out taxes and medical insuarnce premiums for the family and that income is already cut in half. The factor in the fact that much of that $147,000 comes in the form of annual bonuses and you can see that a diamond might be living on less than $4000 a month.
It is only the secretive tools business income that allows diamonds to portray a wealthy lifestyle. But even at that it can be smoke and mirrors as even a half million dollar a year income cannot buy you mansions and jets in cash.
Where were all the Amway devotees when I was trying to unload my Curves. Hell, they would have bought Howie’s speechs, hook-line and sinker. Shekar, you could have had my club for next to nothing and with your expectations of not making money for up to five years, you are the perfect Curves franchisee.
OK guys. I am not back here to present my views (I have already done it above). So please do NOT respond to this post – I have no intention of joining the debate again. Just check these things out:
- What you call scam is sponsoring Miss USA 2010!.
- Best Buy has joined what YOU call a scam.
- check this:
http://moneywatch.bnet.com/career-advice/blog/other-8-hours/why-you-should-join-amway/919/?tag=content
Thank you for not joining what you call a scam and for HELPING others NOT to join. Lastly, thank you for trying your best to prove how I am involved in what you call a scam. But let me assure you, I am HAPPY with what you call a scam.
Cheers/Shekhar
“Best Buy has joined what YOU call a scam.”
What does that mean that Best Buy has joined Amway?
I saw something that says they are partnering with Amway and are partner stores.
Does that mean they are going to sell Amway products in Best Buy stores?
[...] To characterize the affiliate relationship as a “partnership” is misrepresentation at best. And when it comes to unashamed misrepresentation at its best, who can compete with AMWAY? [...]
New post on AMWAY Partner stores claims. Comments invited:
AMWAY Partner Store Claims Embarrass Their IBOs
Amway is a scam, and here’s why: Amway pays out as little money as they can get away with, so they support the higher level IBOs ripping off their downline via the tool scam.
As a result, about 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, while the top 1% make several TIMES more from their Amway tool scam than from the Amway products.
Read about it on my blog, I suggest you start here and forward the information to everyone you know, so they don’t get scammed.
Tex:
Perhaps you could explain what you mean by “tool scam”?
Brief overview perhaps?
Anon,
I already did on my original post, and you can view my site for additional details. If you’re still not sure, let me know when you can call a conference number that doesn’t cost you anything except normal long distance charges, and you can keep your number confidential.
Tex sounds like a broken record, or a stupid parrot.
The truth is usually simple. Those who post as Anonymous are usually stupid. LOL
And someone posting at Tex is always stupid?
Guys,
I had resolved not to waste time with you guys here….but cannot resist this last time.
All the negative posts here are without foundation (Amway should sue these guys here – one day they might) and ARE FALSE AND TOTAL LIES! I was surpirsed someone said Diamonds are earning 4000 after tax and that their houses are getting foreclosed. Do you know the truth or does that make you jealous so you want to be happy with ignorance ???? Why diamonds, even pins much much lower are making much more than you would like to know !!! STOP THE LIE!
HOW MUCH LIES AND VENOM guys ? How much ? You want to call me names? go ahead…..if that makes you happy. But STOP SPREADING LIES.
You think you are doing a service to people by badmouthing Amway???
People, get wise, do you want to listen to broke people spreading lies or think and make your own decision.
Cheers and ADIOS to this post.
IF YOU FIGHT WITH A PIG…..BOTH GET DIRTY….AND THE PIG LOVES IT!!!!!
Thank you Shekhar for the “Adios”.
Shekhar,
Amway knows EXACTLY who I am, and they can’t sue me (and win), because what I say is TRUE. Same with the LCKs. They sue/threaten to sue people who made very minor comments, but they won’t touch me and others who state facts, particularly ATS (Amway Tool Scam) facts. The fact that I have discussed the LCKs and their ATS for almost 5 YEARS, with ZERO complaint is virtual PROOF what I write is true.
The “Diamonds” losing their homes are no longer qualified Diamonds, they merely wear the pin they earned a long time ago. The ATS has propped them up every since, but you can’t keep it going when very few people are paying into it.
Yes, I am DEFINITELY doing a service by warning others about the ATS. That isn’t badmouthing, that is telling the truth.
You’re not wise, you are misguided. Stop your tapespeak and WAKE UP!!!
Tex says that “The fact that I have discussed the LCKs and their ATS for almost 5 YEARS, with ZERO complaint is virtual PROOF what I write is true.”
More likely it’s proof that no one takes Tex seriously and he isn’t a threat to them. I’m an outsider investigating this opportunity. When I asked him to explain what he meant by “tool scam” instead of answering he said go to his website (which is a confusing hodgepodge) and offered a personal conference call (bizarre). He seems more interested in trading barbs and insults than truly informing and warning.
Merchants of Deception guy was willing to put in some serious time writing a book, but I find the info so out of date it doesn’t seem that relevant.
On the other hand, Amway supporters like ibofightback represent the pro-Amway point of view rationally and point to informative, serious, factual websites that easily marginalize critics like Tex as crackpots.
More likely it’s proof that no one takes Tex seriously and he isn’t a threat to them. —- No, that isn’t likely at all. Why would the LCKs (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) sue someone making a comment about a painting in Ada being changed to replace the ex-wife with the currrent wife, and nothing is said when I call them LCKs? Or sue them over the details of the leave-behind information unique to a particular LOS?
I’m an outsider investigating this opportunity. When I asked him to explain what he meant by “tool scam” instead of answering he said go to his website (which is a confusing hodgepodge) and offered a personal conference call (bizarre). He seems more interested in trading barbs and insults than truly informing and warning. —- If I offered a personal conference call, how is that NOT “truly informing and warning?” Personalized service, and live, without the misunderstandings often found on forums/blogs. If the website is confusing to you, what better way to explain it than a simple telephone call?
Merchants of Deception guy was willing to put in some serious time writing a book, but I find the info so out of date it doesn’t seem that relevant. —- It may be older information, but until the tool prices and travel costs come down significantly, it is still applicable.
On the other hand, Amway supporters like ibofightback represent the pro-Amway point of view rationally and point to informative, serious, factual websites that easily marginalize critics like Tex as crackpots. —- ibofb dodges the REAL business questions, but he did succeed pulling the wool over YOUR eyes. I am neither pro or con, just the facts.
Tex writes “Why would the LCKs (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) sue someone making a comment about a painting in Ada being changed to replace the ex-wife with the currrent wife, and nothing is said when I call them LCKs?”
Tex, it’s kind of sad to see someone trying so hard to get an angry reaction from a company and the only reaction he gets is laughter and mockery. They don’t sue you because they are too busy laughing at you.
Why don’t you clearly explain the tool scam, how it works, right here so even outsiders can understand? Maybe with minimal acronyms, insider-speak and references to paintings. Then maybe you’ll earn an audience for your blog and even your conference calls. And you won’t be such an easy target for the their ridicule.
Tex, it’s kind of sad to see someone trying so hard to get an angry reaction from a company and the only reaction he gets is laughter and mockery. They don’t sue you because they are too busy laughing at you. —- Nice try, but this makes no sense. Why would they sue over a minor issue mentioned online, but be silent when a major issue is mentioned online? LOL
Why don’t you clearly explain the tool scam, how it works, right here so even outsiders can understand? Maybe with minimal acronyms, insider-speak and references to paintings. Then maybe you’ll earn an audience for your blog and even your conference calls. And you won’t be such an easy target for the their ridicule. —- Here’s a summary, feel free to ask questions, so I can expand on the requested area of confusion:
Amway is a scam, and here’s why: Amway pays out as little money as they can get away with, so they support the higher level IBOs ripping off their downline via the tool scam.
As a result, about 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, while the top 1% make several TIMES more from their Amway tool scam than from the Amway products.
Read about it on my blog, I suggest you start here: http://tiny.cc/D5oJh and forward the information to everyone you know, so they don’t get scammed.
If you, like me, don’t already know what the Amway “tool scam” is don’t bother with Tex’s site. He continues to refer to the Tool Scam but never explains or defines it. The random powerpoint slides seem intentionally designed to confuse and bore.
As far as I can tell, the tool scam involves selling screwdrivers, hammers and drills and not getting commissioned on them.
Take my word for it, Tex, you’re not getting sued because you actually make it easy for them to dismiss critics. You don’t even make IBOFBs Guide to Amway critics. But keep at it and maybe some day you’ll achieve your dream of being sued by Amway. Good luck.
Anon,
Even though I asked you to ask questions if anything didn’t make any sense, you didn’t do that. However, you did bring up some issues that point to obvious areas of lack of knowledge.
The ATS (Amway Tool Scam) is the hidden profits the various “tools” create, and include CDs, books, various meetings, web sites, voice mail, etc., that create several times more profit for Emeralds and above than Amway products do. It is important to note the upline promotes making money from the Amway products, but “forgets” to mention (aka – lies about the real business model) most of the profit comes from the above tools.
In addition, any information (tool) shown to a prospect MUST be Amway approved, so it isn’t reasonable for IBOs to reject the tools, nor is it reasonable for IBOs to use some tools and not others, the rules are far too complex to expect a new IBO to come to this conclusion.
To top it all off, most IBOs below Platinum, which makes up about 99% of all IBOs, operate at a net loss, thanks to the above described ATS.
They aren’t suing me because it is easy for them to dismiss me, they aren’t suing me because I am relating FACTS, and they don’t want to bring more attention to the ATS.
I don’t make ibofb’s list because he is running scared, and he doesn’t want to bring more attention to me.
Does this help?
Tex is a forum troll. He has posted in so many forums about his “tools scam”. He even went on a rampage posting his tools scam ad nauseum on blogs completely unrelated to Amway. Tex likes to repeat over and over the same things.
I actually agree with Tex that Amway is not a good opportunity for most because the compensation is not fair for most who are involved. While the tools may or may not be as significant or not, it is unnecessary for Tex to invade all of these blogs to encourage people to call him or to turn the focus of the dicussion to the “tools scam”.
Tex isn’t being sued because the parties involved are rolling on the floor laughing. In fact, they are probably happy that Tex dvierts and makes these blogs look stupid with his rantings so prospects don’t see the rational reasons why or why they shouldn’t get involed in Amway.
Tex:
Yes, that helps.
Thanks
Peter,
Tex is a forum troll. He has posted in so many forums about his “tools scam”. He even went on a rampage posting his tools scam ad nauseum on blogs completely unrelated to Amway. Tex likes to repeat over and over the same things. — Would you like some cheese with that whine? LOL
I actually agree with Tex that Amway is not a good opportunity for most because the compensation is not fair for most who are involved. While the tools may or may not be as significant or not, it is unnecessary for Tex to invade all of these blogs to encourage people to call him or to turn the focus of the dicussion to the “tools scam”. —- As I want the ATS (Amway Tool Scam) shut down, I will do whatever it takes to draw attention to it.
Tex isn’t being sued because the parties involved are rolling on the floor laughing. In fact, they are probably happy that Tex dvierts and makes these blogs look stupid with his rantings so prospects don’t see the rational reasons why or why they shouldn’t get involed in Amway. —-WRONG. If the LCKs are willing to sue over extremely minor issues posted online, they (the LCKs or Amway) would sue me in a heartbeat with the content on my site, if it were untrue. Prospects probably don’t understand all the details, they can ask if they want, or be scared off by the ATS facts.
Like the title of this thread reads. Tex and Amway are a scam and they are annoying.
How am I a scam? All I’m doing is telling the truth. The truth may be annoying to some, educational for others, but either way, the truth is the truth.
Tex:: You speak TRUTH and you are attacked. When you read the article in Google “History of Pyramid Schemes and MLM — Network Marketing” you see how the FTC legalized Amway’s scheme.
Just as the FTC has legalized the franchise schemes where churning and encroachment fill in the bottom of the pyramid, as needed. What is the difference between a legal and an illegal pyramid scheme — who knows? Maybe it all depends on whom you know!
Tex obviously doesn’t understand the difference between an opinion and the truth.
Paul,
What have I said that is opinion, and not truth?
Why do you constantly make unsupported charges?
Paul: Why don’t you tell us the difference beween opinion and the truth!
In 1979, the FTC legalized the Amway MLM scheme —this is a fact. Tex knows the original scheme is legal and harms lots of innocents and he provides FACTS concerning the ATS with the hope that people will smarten up.
There is a PhD, Dr. Taylor, who has tried to expose the MLM schemes for many years with TRUTH about MLM’s. Read his article Opportunity Lost: the Legacy of the Amway Ruling http://www.mlm.thetruth.com/ftc_blunder.htm
Carol,
Actually, I don’t consider any of the other posters as “attacking” me, they are mere pesky gnats!
In fact, it is well known the LCKs will sue over minor issues (lies), yet they are silent when I repeatedly call them the LYING COWARDLY “KINGPIN” tool scammers that they are, because:
1. They know they won’t win a lawsuit, as I am telling the truth, and
2. They don’t want to draw additional attention to their ATS (Amway Tool Scam).
Amway won’t sue for the same reason, even though I consider all of them LCKs as well.
Therefore, when I speak the truth, I am NOT attacked.
I don’t know enough about the franchise laws/law enforcement, so I won’t comment on that issue, I defer to you.
However, the FTC has never looked at the ATS. When the UK government did, they outlawed it. That’s the facts, so until/unless someone can bring other information to the discussion, the facts stand. Period.
Carol,
You’re right about the 1979 FTC ruling, the FTC did declare Amway’s MLM legal. However, the FTC did NOT include the ATS in their ruling. As noted above, the UK government DID look at the ATS, and declared it illegal.
I don’t agree with most of what Taylor says, he is a VERY confused man. There are much better sources of information than him.
I couldn’t get your link to work.
Almost everyone knows that upline profits from tools. How is it a scam if everyone knows about it and participates because they think they will benefit from it?
Where Tex is wrong is that the tools are a scam because they do not produce results. If mostly everyone went diamond, then these folks wouldn;’t mind paying $5 for a cd or $100 for FED or whatever function is going on.
Obviously, because everyone thinks that they will someday be upline and profit from tools —they see the carrot — and by the time they find out it is just an illusion, it is too late! — or something like that. Those on the top of the MLM’s know a lot about human nature and how to work it.
Just like franchising —-Once they are sucked in because there is no true disclosure required concerning performance of past and present participants in the MLM, it is to late. Been Had! So Sad! Courtesy of the FTC!
Paul,
Almost everyone knows that upline profits from tools. —- Do they know HOW MUCH? Do they realize the profit and other practices will keep them from having a net profit until they reach Platinum? Do they realize once they reach Platinum, they will have 75-150 IBOs in their downline, most of whom are operating at a net loss? I doubt it, Paul. THAT’S why the UK outlawed the ATS, Paul. Get a clue, Paul.
How is it a scam if everyone knows about it and participates because they think they will benefit from it? —- See above, Paul.
Where Tex is wrong is that the tools are a scam because they do not produce results. —- Of course the tools don’t produce results, except for the upline LCKs. They get rich off the tool scam. The reason the tools don’t work for the downline is not because the tool content is poor, the high prices cause tremendous churn, or turnover, as IBOs go broke and drop out, only to be replaced by other IBOs, who continue the process.
If mostly everyone went diamond, then these folks wouldn;’t mind paying $5 for a cd or $100 for FED or whatever function is going on. —- It is impossible for “everyone” to go diamond, as hundreds of new IBOs are needed for every new diamond. You aren’t thinking the process through, the point is the business model, because of the ATS, produces 99% of IBOs operating at a net loss, and 1% double dipping with the Amway and ATS profit. If all existing IBOs went diamond, the same ratio is maintained. It really isn’t difficult, complex math.
Carol,
Obviously, because everyone thinks that they will someday be upline and profit from tools —they see the carrot — and by the time they find out it is just an illusion, it is too late! — or something like that. Those on the top of the MLM’s know a lot about human nature and how to work it. —- Most IBOs don’t realize the upline makes most of their profit from the ATS, and most IBOs don’t realize they won’t operate at a net profit until they reach Platinum. If hey did, most would quit!
Just like franchising —-Once they are sucked in because there is no true disclosure required concerning performance of past and present participants in the MLM, it is to late. Been Had! So Sad! Courtesy of the FTC! —- I agree, and have contacted the FTC on several occasions to look at Amway again, and this time include the ATS, just like the UK did, and declared the ATS illegal. I believe there are 3 factors why the FTC hasn’t done this, in order of importance:
1. Incompetence
2. Bureaucracy
3. Political Influence
Tex:
You indicate that you don’t agree with Dr. John Taylor who with his Consumer Awareness Instuitute seems to be trying to combat “white collar crime” and expose the MLM’s.
He has excellent credentials and it appears that you share the same goals of warning about the general unprofitability of MLM’s for those on the bottom of the pyramid. Where are you in disagreement? What is your goal? What is his goal, in your opinion?
What do you think about his article “Despite the Amway Ruling, De Facto or Markiet Saturation is Very Real.” (I disagree strongly with his statement, i.e. In franchising, strict limits are placed on territories covered to protect against de factor saturation of the marketplace” because, of course, this is not true because churning and encroachment is encouraged under state and federal regulation and the adhesory franchise agreements.)
You indicate that you don’t agree with Dr. John Taylor who with his Consumer Awareness Instuitute seems to be trying to combat “white collar crime” and expose the MLM’s. —-> Taylor is putting the focus on the FTC declared LEGAL aspect of the Amway MLM and taking the focus off the unethical, immoral, and ILLEGAL aspect of the ATS (Amway Tool Scam). All he does is causes confusion, and the ATS marches on.
He has excellent credentials and it appears that you share the same goals of warning about the general unprofitability of MLM’s for those on the bottom of the pyramid. Where are you in disagreement? What is your goal? What is his goal, in your opinion? —-> He doesn’t know what he’s talking about, he is using his title to speak of which he doesn’t have a clue. I’ve BEEN an Amway IBO, I’ve SEEN what happens, so when others say similar things, I KNOW what they’re talking about. I don’t operate in Taylor’s world of theory and goal to make money off an opinion based entirely on an erroneous theory, not experience. You and Taylor have failed to separate the legitimate Amway product business from the ATS. Why should those “on the bottom of the pyramid” be making millions of dollars?
What do you think about his article “Despite the Amway Ruling, De Facto or Markiet Saturation is Very Real.” (I disagree strongly with his statement, i.e. In franchising, strict limits are placed on territories covered to protect against de factor saturation of the marketplace” because, of course, this is not true because churning and encroachment is encouraged under state and federal regulation and the adhesory franchise agreements.) —-> I didn’t read his article, he’s a waste of time. From the standpoint of Amway being saturated in the U.S., I agree, because it hasn’t grown in several years. However, this doesn’t mean new people aren’t being ripped off, because the ones who drop out after being ripped off by the ATS are replaced with new ones.
Tex sounds like a broken record parroting the same old story time and again.
John IBO,
The reason I sound like a broken record is because the ATS (Amway Tool Scam) run by the LCKs (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) has been ripping off IBOs using the same old techniques for several decades. The abuse hasn’t changed, why should the reporting of it change?
What makes you think you have the right to invade and take over people’s blogs saying the same thing over and over, post after post? Make your comment and leave it at that.
What makes you think you have the right to invade and tell me not to “take over” people’s blog saying the same thing over and over, post after post? Make your comment and leave it at that. LOL
I have the right because you are a dumbo.
Where is Shekhar?
Perhaps he can give us an update on what his monthly sales and profits are with his Amway business!
What do you think the odds are that Shekhar is still pouring time and money into Amway?
John,
Go flush yourself, you turd.
Haha, whatsa matter texie? Did I hit a nerve? Go screw yourself. Haha
Not at all, in fact I just got off the phone with a lawyer who won the recent Federal court case to move the class action lawsuit forward in court, not in Amway’s “unconscionable” arbitration process. LOL
Hey Not a Victim,
After reading reading this entire topic, I literally busted out laughing when I read your comment below.
I almost forgot about Mr. Shekhar. Maybe he’s busy cleaning his Ferrari with Amway car care products… LMAO
“Not a Victim on May 4th, 2010 9:16 pm
Where is Shekhar?
Perhaps he can give us an update on what his monthly sales and profits are with his Amway business!
What do you think the odds are that Shekhar is still pouring time and money into Amway?”
I put the odds at about 50%. The other 50% is he quit. LOL
I always wonder what are the percentage of the MLM “business owners” who are actually making a living out of it… 5 percent ? 10 percent ??? And the ratio of winners to losers … 1 to 1000 ? All these numbers and figures have to be pre-computed for the company to maintain payroll. MLM companies should disclose these figures to anyone who intends to sign up. Did I mention lottery tickets ?!
Less than 1%. The rest are being ripped off via the ATS (Amway Tool Scam).
It is not a scam. It is a way to do business with low cost and low risk. With that being said, the chances to succeed are also low. Less than 1% is correct.
But if you open up your own business, 98% fail in the first year and the 2% who are left, only 1% break even after 3 years.
Just like a business, MLM companies are also tough to make money in. Think about it, if it were that easy that the whole world would be in Amway and everyone would be a millionaire. Nothing comes easy, but if you work at it and stay persistent, it eventually pays off at the end.
Just analyze and be logical and try to make money instead of spending it. My father is a the biggest networrker in the Middle East. I am also following his footsteps in North America. The key is to leave your family and friends alone, they are not your customers. Customers are people that you can exploit to earn income, and if you are exploiting your family and friends, then you need to reconsider what you are doing.
To be scucessful, pick the main product that you like and market it. Instead of buying CD’s, Dvd’s, books and god knows what, buy the one product that you think is really good and market that for double the price.
Pardon my grammatical errors above.
MG, you have been fed lies by your upline. 98% of businessed do not fail in 3 years. Not according to the SBA.. On the other hand, more than 99% of IBOs fail. Amway might be low risk, but it’s even lower on success.
amyway is a great business i have been in for 2yrs and the result is great i have reached platium in the business won a free trip all expense pay with my family to disney my monthly salary is 10000.00 i have recently been honoured at a banquet recieve a sterling crystal plaque i am doing great with this business i could provide a lifestyle for my daughter i could go and shop and take up an item and not worrying about the price next yr march i am going to visit bill gates home
on a trip with my family all expwnse pay by amyway…to shekar a word of advice don’t let anyone or anything shattered you dream….these people have no goal and dream they will continue to live paycheck to paycheck and not have a lifestyle thanks amyway….for making a happy person..
Trissh:
Are you stripping for the CEO to make $10,000 a month? For an honored sales woman your grammar is unfortunate and you sound uneducated…wait… it sounds like a new Amway sales pitch.
I dropped out of school and dropped into Amway.
I use to be all messed up on drugs now I’m all messed up on Amway.
A company so good it’s bad!
I think, therefore I “Am-Way” stupid!
Anymore…?
Trissh is lying. Platinums don’t make $10k/month, whether it is net or gross profit. Also, Amway pays a commission, not salary. I suspect the Bill Gates comment is a lie as well.
I have read through the entire blog the past 7 hours and read through some of the links that you guys have posted. I have no idea whether or not this post is still alive, but I have some questions. I understand the gyst of things regarding Amway. Obviously, there are many sides to the story without name calling. Amway could provide a secondary income (a very slim chance) to those who actually are willing to work their butts off for this company. I understand the “recommended” training they must go through, and the years of hard work they are “recommended” to put in before they can be expected climb up the ladder. I am aware that a lot of this “training products” are related to the Amway Tool Scam, in which tools are sold to IBOs in order to profit the higher ups without providing much help to the newbies.
My question is simply regarding this ladder system though. I have personally come to the conclusion that, Amway as a business is not a scam. If I am correct, it provides people with an opportunity to start their own business at relatively affordable costs. However, like any business one must pull in a lot of the efforts and is never guaranteed any financial success. Some people can marginalize this deficit by making excuses like joining for the sake of discounts, but ultimately, it provides a relatively low-risk/low-success rate way of gaining financial independence. If I am wrong in any of these statements, please correct without defaming. I’m just asking for clarifications, not hot-headed opinions.
Anyways, with regards to my original question…
How exactly does the ladder system work. In one of the earlier posts, there was a link to Amway wiki and I’ve tried to read through the ladder system. But I have no idea what it’s actually saying. To make silver level you have to make 21% level? I get most of it after that. Pretty much remaining constantly at this level for about 2 years get you up to some certain level. And the higher levels require you to have “legs” or more downline (or is this harder to reach?) -I’m assuming- that must make this 21% level. Can someone clarify:
1.) What is this 21% level?
2.) What are the chances of making this 21% level for a startup?
3.) How long would it take on average to get to this 21%?
4.) How hard is it (I guess that depends on what the 21% is)?
5.) What are “legs?” (you need 3 legs that does silver level to qualify as a Pearl)
I guess my logic is, since the entire ladder system is based on this initial silver level and how consistent you can be with it, the level of difficulty regarding the silver level is what really matters…
Thanks to anyone who can help with this info…
And really really. I am very curious if Shekhar ever wants to rejoin the post, how he is faring. For the love of truth only, I for one won’t judge if he failed, or quit and will be happy if he ended up succeeding after 2 years… or 4 years if the loose assumptions based on the 2007 post were true. I earnestly want to know the truth regarding the process. And to tex, I have read and understood your thoughts and facts on the Amway Tool Scam and am convinced that the tools are a way to give money to higher ups; but logically, I’m sure those who succeeded in Amway used some of these tools. For a fact, not all who use them end up with any success and usually end up in a deficit, but my question to you would be… Are there any good tools that you know of. My guess would be that there are so many tools recommended and put up on the Amway bookstore/cd/lecture “store” that most start ups have no idea which ones to buy. So they end up buying into massive amounts of resources without really learning much.
But to those who succeeded, which resources did you use? Do mentors really provide all that you need to succeed in Amway? I’m sure most resources out there are useless. But are there any “diamonds in the rough?”
I don’t want this to turn into another debate… I’m sure anyone who is curious can get the gyst of the debate from the above 20 pages worth of comments.
Thanks in advance
IC,
I’ve found plenty of value in tools I’ve purchased, and never had any problem with the fact that the people who make and sell them make money from it. That’s normal business. I believe all the companies that produce tools have a recommended startup sets.
In response to your questions -
(1) 21% is the maximum volume rebate (think of it as a volume discount) for most Amway markets, calculated monthly. North America actually goes up to 25%. The actual volume required to qualify for it also varies between markets. In most markets it’s 10000 points, in some it’s 7500 points.
(2) chance has very little to do with it. I am yet to meet a single person who did what our group recommends to reach that volume and *didn’t* reach it. I’ve also seen ad hoc surveys done at seminars of thousands of people with exactly the same result.
(3) 6-12 months of consistently working seems to be the approximate time frame.
(4) The work itself is not hard, as long as your psychologically prepared (as in all “sales” types of businesses) to accept that the vast majority of people you attempt to “sell” the business or products to will not be interested. Most people find that difficult. It’s also extremely difficult for most people (including myself) to consistently maintain the focus required for 6-12 months. While the work itself is not hard, and not particularly time consuming, it is usually added on to everything else in your life, the sum total of which makes it difficult to maintain consistency
(5) Each person you personally sponsor is the start of a “leg”. When a leg reaches 21% there is no longer any profit margin for you (ie you and they are bothing getting the same volume rebate). In traditional business if you were a wholesaler and selling to someone who qualified to deal direct with your supplier, you’d then lose them as a customer. Amway operates differently and starts to add in new bonuses/commissions. As you develop more 21% teams, additional bonuses come in to play
[del]
Do not trust ibofb. He is a known liar, has a huge ego, and is dishonest to the core.
I have also found the tools to have good information, but they are too expensive. There’s a reason why the UK almost kicked Amway out of their country in 2008, and why ZERO tool profit is allowed. There is a reason why the Amway rules in India have maximum tool prices, which are about 1/5 of what we pay for in the U.S. The reason is to shut down the Amway Tool Scam, the biggest issue Amway faces.
I submitted a response yesterday, and it appears the links have kept it in moderation status.
TEX: We don’t allow posting of email addresses or other personal contact information in the comments. Also, there’s no need to post links to your site as your name already links to your url. Thanks for helping to build the conversation here.
I really do pity these Amway “associates”. To be honest ladies and gents, I don’t think arguing with them will alter their mindset. They need this to make them selves feel better because it’s their only opportunity. Talking about starting your own business… why don’t you just sell your own products.
All you Amwamites or whatever your cult title is (plutonium eradium level maybe?) need to look at your self in the mirror and ask “AM I MAKING MONEY?”
If you are, then shit, do work guys and gals. Sell the fugget out of shampoo and detergent because you’re good at it.
IF YOU ARE NOT. Shut the fugget up on all these useless bantering on working hard and BS because you just made your upline money and you’re on this message board on your 200$ laptop because you invested in the CEO’s private plane.
You waste your life in this pathetic company with a mistaken reputation. Even If I was making money in this scheme, I would never want to represent Amway for sheer RESPECT of myself
Motfool (any significance in your name? – let us see:)
I have been getting these posts off and on and have been looking at it once in a while. Anyone comes, trashes the Corporation! I think, it is a mistake to keep silent and let the dogs bark. Sometimes, the barking becomes unbearable!
Motfool, it is EXACTLY because of people like you that there are millions out there who are deprived of a fantastic opportunity – to be in a business for yourself at practically no cost! You RESPECT yourself you say? It is evident you are mistaking “respect” with ignorance!! What respect are you talking about? Scaring good people out there? You guys are a “Fear mongers”. You work like donkeys for the rest of your lives, and yell “I have been cheated by an Amway guy” even when you hear the name Amway.
You “motfool”, you say “you just made your upline money and invested in CEO’s private plane? do you know the facts man (or a woman!):
1) Every year people like you INCREASE the Walmart business by a few
BILLIONS.
2) During the recession, you increased their business by 10 BILLIONS.
Do you UNDERSTAND the significance of this you motfool?
Do you think Walmart/Target give you products FREE of cost? Then WHY do you say I made money for my upline?
Argument with people like you wastes our time…but it is getting too much!
People like you are such:
- Its OK if someone ELSE makes money!
- But NO ONE from my friends and family should make any money!
People like you scare away innocent and hardworking people who would make a fortune in this business.
I make “upline” money??? do you know the facts (again?):
- When I learn how to make USD 2600 PER MONTH,
my upline gets paid USD 800/-
- People out there do not know (thanks to you) that my upline is HELPING
me all the time! He has invested a whole lot in my success.
- So should I be sad that he is making 800 or happy that I am making 2600!
Stop badmouthing something you know NOTHING ABOUT!!!
Let me give you examples of people like you:
- You go to college.
- Out of “SELF RESPECT”, you do not study but enjoy the heck out of the college time.
- When you fail, you scream the “College is bad” “It is a scam”.,
- You work, your spouse works, between the two of you you make 150 to 200K a year. so you are flying high.
- Come recession and then you fall down to earth and work at gas stations.
- Working at gas stations is “SELF RESPECTING” than selling “Shampoo” you have said.
Dont ask me how much I make, none of your goddamn business! If you like it you are welcome to the biz if not, then go back to where you are!!
What we do?
Let Winners win. and Losers lose!!
Take care you motfool.
Shekhar,
You need to learn more about the Amway business. [del]
Tex: please feel free to share your information and opinions here in our comments section. If you’d like to buy an ad for your site, email me at unhappyfranchisee@gmail.com. Thanks. Admin
Shekhar is back! Shekhar is in the house!
Shekhar, why is it that you have NO problem tossing around fictional and hypothetical (big words… look them up) dollar amounts (“When I learn how to make USD 2600 PER MONTH…” as in “When pigs fly…”) but when it comes to a simple FACT (like how much, in actuality, you really make, Or lose, each month) you say “none of your goddamn business!”?
Shekhar, you are a typical AmBot – Won’t shut up when it comes to spewing fiction but are deathly afraid of stating or facing the truth… that you’ve been doing this for years and are still losing money. That you are, in fact, a sucker.
Come on, Shekhar! what do you make? We promise we won’t tell the IRS Millionaire Division.
I joined Amway about 2 months ago and have nothing negative to say about it thus far. My mother loves the cleaning products, and I love their vitamins and supplements.
The way I see it is, I’m buying products from myself that I already use, so why not give it a shot?
My uncle did Amway 20 years ago and had some great success with it but its clear to me that it required some work.
I went to one of their conferences in Kentucky (I live in Texas), and it was an amazing experience. Being around 15,000 people who are excited about the same thing as you is exhilarating.
Even if this business doesn’t work out for me, I’ve learned how to be a more confident person and I’ve met some great people along the way.
I think anyone with an open-mind, looking for a second income, and a people person should look into this opportunity. Success is never guaranteed, but the journey is more important than the end and the start.
I like Eric’s comment. I don’t really want to debate just throw some things out there.
1. Why should shekhar tell you how much he’s making when it obviously wouldn’t change your guys’ minds?
2. Amway is accredited by the BBB.
3. Amway is the #2 in making millionaires. (#1 is microsoft) I know a lot of ppl that are successful everyday. LOC (legacy of clean) is the number one rated cleaning product in America. Plus it’s all natural. Kurt Warner is the spokesmen for nutrilite and Sandra Bullock for Artistry. The products are top notch.
4. The question is not whether or not it works. It’s whether or not you want it and are willing to do it.
5. If you guys don’t like it then more power to ya! Just don’t say it doesn’t work.
This video is awesome! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZiw15VgWoI
Just some food for thought
Eric/Sharea,
You are BOTH missing the point. Did you really already use vitamins at the prices you’re now paying? It requires much more work than it should, because you don’t understand your upline is probably making several times more from the tools than from Amway, and over 99% of IBOs are doing things like traveling hundreds of miles to attend a function, which could be held locally if the recommendations on my site were followed (click on my name for the specifics). If it doesn’t work out for you, the reasons will include you are being ripped off via the Amway Tool Scam (ATS). Only a foolish business person would say the journey is more important than the beginning and end points. Interesting how your upline talks about goals yet can get you to think in this manner.
1. Shekhar is probably like the over 99% of IBOs losing money.
2. The BBB refuses to address the ATS. I know, I sent them an email complaining about the ATS and they said to take it to the state Attorneys General, which I did.
3. Where are your statistics to prove Amway is #2 at making millionaires?
4. The question is whether you are going to realize you’re being ripped off via the ATS.
5. I don’t just say it doesn’t work. Click on my name and read my site for literally thousands of facts.
Your video is a cartoon, my site is factual. Just some facts for thought!
#3 Continued – Kurt Warner made a mistake, and Sandra Bullock WAS a spokesperson in Europe.
“I don’t really want to debate just throw some things out there”
In other words, I don’t really want to have to consider another viewpoint, you should just drink the Kool aid lke I did
“1. Why should shekhar tell you how much he’s making”
Shekhar is promoting Amway as a moneymaking opportunity but he’s never made a profit. We just want to see how much we can lose each month like you and Shekhar”
“Amway is the #2 in making millionaires. (#1 is microsoft)”
Amway is #1 at making up bogus claims and getting naive Ambot zombies to repeat them as fact. Seriously, where did you get that bs.
98% of all amway products are purchased by their Ibos and the other 2% by their mothers. According to research the average ibo has an IQ just 12 points above clinical retardation. 10% of all ibos are killed each year by irate neighbors, exfriends and spouses who just can’t take it anymore.
See how easy it is?
“Amway is the #2 in making millionaires. (#1 is microsoft)”
i worked for both amway and shaklee
i have a sister in law that works for avon
all three companies you get what you put in
with all three you must put in time and money if not you will not get back anything
with all three you must work and irrateate everone around you (sorry)
kills freinds fast
there are worst things then this try gathering walnuts or acorn or even pine nuts when there in season
all i can say is that my sister in law lost freinds as well as me
there is a new one out now thou you might like it
lingere sales
A look in my rear view mirror. I was involved in Amway many years ago, (1973) when I was 24 years old. I was initially drawn into the dream that Amway could make all my dreams come true. They are indeed like a cult or a religion that is really taking advantage of one’s desire for better things and they are really promising a happy ending for all. I dropped out after a few months as I began to realize that my future with this business really was dependent on other people’s efforts. I remember the meetings where you were asked to share your life’s goals and dreams openly. Now, let me fast forward to the present. I obtained my life’s goals by earning everything through hard work and perseverance. I am financially secure and have been debt free since 1984. My advice to all is to believe in yourself.
Wow…I read through this entire blog and what I get from this is that everyone has an opinion. Most people have negative experiences being IBOs and like many other human beings they NEED someone to blame.
Just wanted to start out by saying I am not associated with Amway whatsoever but I’ve seen the mentality time and time again….. As a general rule people are lazy and more so, gullible. Most will look for a scheme to get rich quick. They find something that has the best pitch and praise it as being the end all of business ventures. They get all excited and invest a minimal amount of effort. When it doesn’t turn out the way they anticipated (sit on the couch and do nothing after two weeks and expect to collect thousands) they become disgruntled and look for something to blame which is usually the company that a short time before they were so excited about. So now you start bad mouthing a company because your lazy nature didn’t produce the results you wanted.
And while I agree that they dangle glamorous lifestyles in front of you, almost all of these companies disclose to you up front that you need to work hard for these results. People forget that. Kind of like when they pay for a gym membership and never go and wonder why they’re still out of shape and broke. You get out of it what you put into it.
And why badmouth a company that you buy something from??? If i like pepsi a d you’re a fan of coke, should I keep pushing my belief on you til you like pepsi too??? You people that are doing all the bashing are just as bad as the ones that work for the company. If someone wants to give it a shot why not just let them??? Kind of like the lottery in that aspect don’t you think??? Gotta be in it to win it…
I happen to be a fan of a certain author. Not gonna mention the name but they have some catchy titles. One of my bestfriends saw the book and without even reading a page of it started calling me a sucker and a fool and that it wasn’t worth the paper it was printed on let alone what I paid for it. “so you think that by reading that book you’re going to get rich?? The only person getting rich is the person that wrote it and by you buying it……”. Yet had he read even a chapter he would have realized that the author never claimed to make you rich and to have all the secrets to doing so. It was more of a frame of mind and concepts then anything else. All of which had very credible backing but he ll never understand that. Ignorance is not always bliss
Because of the books I read I learned how to take control of my finances, work my primary job and run a successful powerwashing business with several other ventures up and coming. Are they all going to be successful??? Who knows?? But I personally would rather have a shot at success doing something than a guaranteed failure doing nothing.
To all you Amway IBOs. Best of luck to you. Just do it whole heartfelt and don’t let anyone pull the wool over your eyes and sell you a bunch of stuff you don’t need. Have the common sense to realize when you’re getting taken for a ride. Take whatever you can get out of these tools and keep moving. Even a failure should be a life lesson learned.
PS. My skeptic friend, bashing the book I was reading…..works for me in my powerwashing company. Why be an employee when you could’ve been a partner??? Work hard and learn always
One more thing. Everybody keeps questioning shekhar on how much he’s invested and how much profit he’s made. Anyone of you start a business from scratch??? I have. It’s almost ridiculous to ask someone just starting out how much they’ve made in their first year up and running. You’d be lucky if you were able to cover your start up costs ( and ALL business have them) in your first year of operation. Some of you skeptics have some nerve.
Considering that Amway has a low start up cost and basically no overhead, it should be easy to determine how much was made or lost. Also, results should be seen right away since most IBOs show a 2-5 year plan to go diamond, which would is supposed to supply a lifelong residual income.
As for bad mouthing Amway, it appears that the criticism is focused on the diamond leaders who lie and deceive while earning most of their income from selling useless tools and motivation rather than from Amway,
JoeCool,
Your last point made me come out of hibernation!
The statement that diamonds make most of their money from selling useless tools is totally false, an utter lie which Amway critics use viciously. Let me explain. The system is so very ABOVE BOARD and honest that they openly state that “IN ADDITION to Amway, money is also made from tools. Amway quitters (people quit studies, jobs, life!) use the INCOMPLETE sentence so honest people will think “o these guys are out to cheat us”. Adios JoeCool. No more arguing withe likes of you! You will remain where you are. I have a vehicle unlike you to go to “SOME” place other than where you are right now…..
Hi Stefan,
This one is for you! I really appreciate your write up! A true businessman understands business. Not like these guys out there who think business is for suckers and jobs are for winners!
You will do well too in your endeavors Stefan. I am sure of it.
Take care and all the best.
Thanks shekhar and good luck to you. I’m sure that judging by some of the stats I’ve seen you have a tough road ahead of you. However there is money just waiting to be made by someone so why shouldn’t that someone be you?
As for Joecool, I really don’t have an argument for you. However I do have to ask a question. I’ve seen your posts and obviously you are very passionate about Amway being a scam. So my question is exactly how much cash-flow have you received from your efforts?? That’s what I love about the skeptics, they can invest so much passion time and effort into telling me how my venture isn’t going to work. Yet they have nothing to show for their efforts. My suggestion would be to stop telling some hard working individuals that they’re being scammed and destined for failure and invest at least half of your passion and effort into something of your own that will actually put money in your pocket. Shekhar apparently found his passion and very well might be wildly successful with it or he may fail miserably. No offense shekhar. But at least he’s doing SOMETHING. I’m not saying that you should buy into the next make money fast thing that you see but spend some of your downtime coming up with something that works for you. You seem like an intelligent individual and I’m sure you’ll do fine if you just bother trying. You could be more successful than either myself or shekhar. You’ll never know that though until you at least give it a shot. Like I said about one of my best friends. He could’ve been my partner or he could’ve come up with something on his own and been insanely successful. But all he had was skepticism. Now when he needs a little extra cash he works for me. He can’t even afford to buy his way into my business now. But hey, what do I know??? I only read a couple of “scam” books and “useless training tools”. Not amway’s tools but you get my point. You take whatever you can possibly get out of ANY situation (success or failure) and you’ll always come out on top.
Best of wishes to all of you. Keep learning and invest your time and efforts wisely. That’s the key to success and not one scheme or book can teach you that.
Hi JoeCool,
You see the difference between people who have invested in their dreams and those who (like you, I am sorry to say), who haven’t.
Did you notice the difference in “quality of an individual” between you and those who have been “Scammed” into reading scam books and apparently those books from which people have made a lot of money?
I rest my case.
Stefan wrote “Everybody keeps questioning shekhar on how much he’s invested and how much profit he’s made. Anyone of you start a business from scratch??? I have. It’s almost ridiculous to ask someone just starting out how much they’ve made in their first year up and running.”
Stefan: Shekhar has been involved with Amway since before December, 2007. 4 years seems ample time to be able to establish some sales and expense numbers.
Shekhar has no problem spreading BOGUS numbers to entice the desperate and/or greedy. He claimed his best friend makes $250K thru Amway, that he knows more than 5 couples that make about $2500 per month, that he knows a woman who bought BMWs for her 16 yr old daughters. Yet he refuses to admit that he has worked since 2007 and has not made jacksh*t.
Seriously, what kind of moron would promote a biz opp for 4 yrs as a great way to make money and then get offended when asked how much money HE makes? An Amway moron, that’s what kind.
PEOPLE OF EARTH: If you are approached by someone wanting you to get involved with Amway… RUN! Exposure to their products damages your common sense, your ability to process logical thoughts, and your self-respect. It will make you annoying, boring, dishonest, moronic, greedy, self-delusional and highly unpopular. Your spouse will be even more disgusted with you than he/she/it is now. Even your dog will avoid you.
Don’t end up like Shekhar, having lost four years and replaced the few friends he had with toxic Ambot Zombies who get together and dream up ways to sucker others into getting zombified like them. After all, friends don’t let friends sell amway.
This is a funny conversation, but i hope you do realize that just cuase you cant do good in this business doesn’t mean it’s a scam. Learn about the business, experience the business. If you can’t get successful; while others are making a lot more than you. YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG, you aren’t committed or your a dumb f**k.
Toxic Ambot Zombies, geez you must be retarted. If your reading this, you can’t trust other people like this dumbass up here. There are plenty of people who have done well in this business and just cuase others haven’t; doesn’t mean you cant. These people are just hating and jealous of the fact they aren’t making money or that they have failed in Amway.
Amway may not have the “best” products, but they do beat most of the products out there. For example, Nutrilite is one of the world’s best supplements you can take for better health. XS enegry is #2 to Redbull which gives you bad aftertaste and hangovers. And E-Spring, After you install it, water is 5 cents a gallon. How much are you paying for water? E-Spring uses UV lights to kill over 99% of germs and bacteria in water.
You haters can think what you want but when you try Amway, you’ll think different and like i said in the paragraph above. IF this business isn’t working for you, YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG, you aren’t committed or your a dumb f**k.
I’m not the only one out there, look at others and all the postive comments are people who have done this business and are successful. You haters can think that they are brainwashing you but they are trying to help you. If you think becoming successful in life is bad, then GOD CAN ONLY HELP YOU.
Try to write something, I’m ready for ya…
Stefan,
Look at this “Guest” and his statements. Look at the quality of people who trash any opportunity without even knowing about it.
These guys just looked up my profile and found out that I had started one web page long time ago and I was not using it. Then I thought, heck, why not use it for Amway. So these guys took it for granted that I have been in this biz for a long time.
I owe NO explanation to these people and that has pissed them off (I like it!).
It is only for you so you should not start thinking that I have been in this biz for long. Furthermore, the amount of success depends upon HOW much time one puts in any endeavor. I have a full time job, family and some other obligations. What do these guys care – so why should i even explain to them.
He calls me a “moron” – imaging his level of intelligence! Look at how vicious these guys are! Enough is enough. Let me retort to their venom in manner:
Guest and co:
Stay where you are. Stay broke.
Keep barking, the caravan is not going to stop for idiots like you!
Good luck to them.
Take care Stefan – no point in arguing with insane people.
Has anyone else noticed that a lot of Amway people are compulsive liars? Do you think liars are attracted to Amway, or do they jusr become liars after they join? Do you think it’s the culture, the brainwashing mentality or just the desperate attempts to rationalize that leads to obviously transparent falsehoods?
Shekhar writes: “I had started one web page long time ago and I was not using it. Then I thought, heck, why not use it for Amway. So these guys took it for granted that I have been in this biz for a long time.”
Nice try, but the fact is that Shekhar wrote about his involvement in Amway in a post dated December, 2007. Shortly after I posted the link here, he deleted the site so he could continue to post here and elsewhere as if he’s an excited newbie just getting started with Amway. I don’t know why he doesn’t want people to know he’s been at it since 2007. What is it with these weirdos?
Reminds me of the old joke:
Q. How can you tell if an Amway salesman is lying?
A. His lips are moving!
Also, has anyone noticed that a lot of Amway defenders online are borderline illiterate? I give Shekhar a pass on this because English is obviously his 2nd language. But “Not a Hater” writes:
“you must be retarted. If your reading this…”
Retarted? Do you mean I had to make my tarts a 2nd time? Or did you mean “retarded”?
By “your” did you mean “you’re”? And were you run-on sentence champ at your special school?
I don’t mean to be the spelling and grammar police, but I have a theory that a lot of Amway and MLM people are those who didn’t pay attention in school or dropped out, have crappy or no jobs, and are trying to make up for their own shortcomings and laziness with this MLM shortcut illusion of someday laying on a beach while their downline pumps dough into their offshore accounts for no work.
Not a Hater, I say this out of love and concern and with no sarcasm intended: You will get farther if you spend your time and energy getting your GED and someday taking classes at a Junior College rather than chasing the Amway illusory dream.
Research proves that college graduates have higher ncomes than HS graduates, HS graduates have higher income than HS dropouts, and HS dropouts, federal prisoners and the homeless all have higher incomes than Scamway IBOs
Shekhar,
When I was an IBO, the uplines LIED and said no money was made on tools. So now they tell you money is made. Okay, do you have a legal agreement on how to qualify for tools money and how much you get? I bet you have no idea. If you get double crossed by your upline over tools, you would have no recourse.
And yes, some diamonds do make much more from tools than Amway. It’s for two simple reasons this is true:
1. Many diamonds are no longer qualifed so their Amway income has now shrunk.
2. If you get a venure with 20,000 IBOs paying $125 for a conference, that’s 2.5 million dollars and many of these convention centers will host these conferences for $25 a person. Some bigger venues will allow a convention for free if you bring enough visitors to the city. Try looking it up for yourself. Not to mention the income the diamonds get from standing orders, voicemail and other materials that they sell.
Joecool continues to obfuscate.
1. He is well aware that for quite some years now all “tool” companies supplying Amway IBOs in the US are required to have written contractual agreements about tool rebates.
2. Joecool is also well aware that there’s a lot more to running a convention than just hiring a venue. He knows there’s very large staffing costs, insurance, multimedia, marketing, licensing, taxes etc etc etc etc
He knows these things but still pretends he doesn’t.
Then again, this is the guy that has been caught running multiple anti-amway blogs under different names – even going so far as to talk to “himself” in the comments!
And “guest” calls Amway people “compulsive liars”? Uhuh
IBOFightback is a well lnown liar and an Amway employee refered to him as a cyber bully. The tool companies may have legal written documents about tools money but these documents are not disbursed and freely shown to IBOs. What they show IBOs is picture of mansions and jets to show that they make a lot of money. But very little or a comlplete lack of transparency.
Maybe someone should ask IBOFB why he gave his ex wife his precious Amway business in a divorce settlement if the business was so great. Why not give up everything else?
Maybe someone should ask IBOFB why he hasn’t taken the time since his divorce to rebuild his Amway business if it’s so great? Why spend all this time blogging about it but doing nothing about it? Lazy? Lacking guts? All of the above?
IBOFB is still obfuscating the facts. While there may be other expenses in running conventions, the bigger conventions still make millions of dollars for the tools companies amd that doesn;t include profits from standing orders, voicemail and books, all of which have little or no marketing and other associated expenses.
“Some” people suspect IBOFB (David Steadson) is nothing more than a paid schill for Amway. Let the audience decide:
http://network21amway.blogspot.com/2011/04/truth-about-amway.html
Is the real “truth about Amway” that “Insider”, site owner of “The Truth About Amway” that he is actually a professional Reputation Manager? If so where would we find out more information about these services – does this evidence leave IBOFightback exposed?
This question has been asked by many over the years.
Massive News for those familiar with the history of deceitful Amway business practices, We have some startling new facts about David Steadson AKA IBOFightback / IBOFB / Insider / Insider201283 / Icerat who runs the pro Amway site “The Truth About Amway”. For years many have suspected him to be paid by Amway for public relations efforts and positive reporting. Finally he has been found to intend to offer such services to direct marketing corporations as a service provider of professional public relations image management and we have proof by his own admission below!
Talk about “selling your soul” for the almighty dollar.
For those who are not aware of David Steadson, he’s known to go to any lengths to make his point. Accused by many of lying and spinning the truth on several other high profile Amway sites, it now appears he may in fact offer his spindoctor services for a living. He is the only vocal pro-Amway person on the internet we know of. He runs at least 20 (we found 23+) sites dedicated to attempting to improve the public image of Amway, Network 21 and Multi Level Marketing schemes in general. Unlike most information sites on the subject his have a positive slanted point of view, not in balance with the majority opinion that these companies do in reality suck.
JoeCool continues his merry way with blatant disregard for the truth, let alone ethics.
(1) He well knows that Amway was referring to someone that hat claimed was threatening to reveal information about him as a “cyberbully”, not me. It later appeared that JoeCool made up the threats, but while busy trying to cover up his tracks the world learned way way too much about JoeCool’s illegal sexual peccadilloes.
(2) JoeCool also knows I am not a paid schill for Amway, it’s been publicly and multiple times stated by both myself and Amway. That post by “mr million” is full of numerous outright lies. I have stated as much to him, unfortunately he hides under anonymity otherwise I’d sue him to penniless oblivion (well, except for the fact he’s already there). If Joecool persists in repeating the lies I’d do the same to him (easier since he’s been identified). Alas, both of these characters live on the other side of the planet and international legal costs make it impractical to do much about it. Such is the nature of the internet, where liars can hide and spout whatever rubbish they like,
Joecool and his cohorts care little for the truth, instead relying on innuendo, misleading or false information, and of course that old favourite, ad hominems galore.
IBOFB was the cyber bully refered to by Amway. It was he who wrote disparaging article about me on his website. Some people have speculated that IBOFB had a hand in this whole thing.
Secondly, I never said you were a paid schill (reading comprehension? I said some people suspect that you are paid to defend Amway. I say the readers can decide for themselves.
You continue to defend a business opprtunity where nearly all people, even hard workers,.end up losing money. You admit yourself that you do not earn a significant income from Amway. There is zero unbiased evidence that hard work and following the system results in success. Instead the internet is littered with stories of failure and lost income because of this wonderful opportunity.
You do more harm convincing people that this is a viable opportunity than those who are skeptical about it. Says a lot about your lack of character.
No, Amway was referring to the (apparently fake) claims you received of you receiving threats. I didn’t bully you at all, poor thing, I simply investigated the claims, that you highlighted, that you were spending extensive time discussing your illegal infidelities on sex web sites. Ended up they were true. You then went to extensive efforts to lie about it, including deleting large swathes of commentary on your website. I still have copies of it all, do you want me to post it up here for all to read?
But you continue to lie and misdirect. You claim I “admit yourself that you do not earn a significant income from Amway” while ignoring the fact that I (a) have in the past and (b) repost Mr Millionaires falsehoods about why I handed that over to my former wife … and you continue to post his other falsehoods that you apparently don’t even believe yourself under that old canard of the propagandist – let the reader decide!
Shall we start a tally? Joecool -
1. lied about being threatened (by, he implies, an IBO) and then deletes his lies when caught, and lies and got caught covering up the lies about visiting illegal prosititutes while married, which is what the alleged “threat” was about
2. pretended to be different people and ran (runs?) multiple anti-amway blogs
3. publishes false and misleading price comparisons – on multiple times
4. apparently doesn’t even know some of the basics of the Amway business, like how Platinums qualify
5. continues to post or promote false and defamatory information about me
not to mention all the false and misleading information he posts about Amway, like claiming “nearly all people, even hard workers,.end up losing money”
Joecool has been shown to be a liar again and again. His obsessive behaviour regarding Amway (nearly 300 blogposts in 2010 alone!) is more than a little concerning. If he’s not paid by competitors then his mental health is certainly questionable.
Sadly, some people believe the crap he writes.
ibofightback:
I remember reading your earlier comments and your blog a while back and, while I didn’t buy all you were saying, always thought you kept it professional and didn’t stoop to ad hominem attacks like your detractors. In your recent stuff it appears that joecool has gotten you to lose yours. Maybe since you both outed the others’ identiies, which was pretty uncool on both sides.
Stuff like the prostitute allegations make you, not joecool, look bad. After all, his defense could be that paying prostitutes is cheaper than getting screwed by Amway
I think your arguments are stronger if you leave the lowblows to them and you be the one who is rational and direct.
I’m not saying it’s true, but from the outside it would seem plausible, if not likely, that you are somehow paid by Amway for online reputation management. It actually would be money well-spent (if it were openly disclosed), because you singlehandedly make this a debate. The anti-Amway hoards would have trampled the likes of Shekhar into paste long ago.
Why do you spend this exorbitant amount of time and energy defending a multilevel marketing program that (according to others) you don’t practice? What is your day job? Doesn’t this detract from it? Or are you a multimillionaire who prefers arguing Amway to supermodels and yacht racing?
Lots of people are motivated by anger to expose scams. I get them. You’re the first I’ve seen dedicated to defending a for-profit company he has no financial stake in. You said that if joecool is not being paid, his mental health is certainly questionable. Isn’t that even more true of you?
PS If you’re not being paid by Amway, you should be. Have you ever discussed it with them?
joecool:
I think taking the name “joecool” comes with a certain responsibility to be, well, cool.
Pulling off ibofightback’s mask isn’t cool.
Bringing up his personal life, divorce, etc. isn’t cool.
Implying in the same post that he’s both an Amway shill and being criticized by Amway as a bully is not cool.
If he’s an Amway shill, that’s pretty serious stuff.
“In its revised endorsements and testimonials guides issued last year, the FTC specified that… the online post by a person connected to the seller, or someone who receives cash or in-kind payment to review a product or service, should disclose the material connection the reviewer shares with the seller of the product or service.”
If you believe he is a paid agent of Amway, you should offer some substantiation.
If you don’t, then saying “some people believe” is just weaselly.
Be cool, Joe. When accused of using prostitutes, have some cool comebacks. Like:
“I got screwed by Amway. Prostitutes are better. And cheaper.”
Or
“I had no choice. Word got out I sold Amway, no unpaid woman would talk to me”
Or
“Why are prostitutes better than Amway? Both screw you & take all your money, but prostitutes don’t make you go to those damn meetings.”
Anyone else…?
“guest”
(1) I don’t “spend this exorbitant amount of time and energy”. As one of the links I gave showed, I did 22 blog posts last year, that compares to JoeCool’s 248, and that didn’t include the blogs we later discovered were by him pretending to be someone else
(2) The “prostitute allegations” were raised by Joecool, not myself. And ended up they were true, not allegations. The evidence is still there on World Sex Guide.
(3) I got involved in defending Amway online when I saw lots of crap being said about them I knew from experience simply wasn’t true. I then researched the company further and learned even more about how unfair many of the attacks against them were. If I find others being attacked unfairly, in any arena, I’ll defend them too if I can.
(4) But yes, it p***ed me off incredibly when folk like Larsen, JoeCool and Mr Million have brought not only my children in to the debate (larsen published a photo of me with my son), but also made up and published and republished allegations against my former wife. They’re frankly scum of the earth to do so. Again, it was joecool who first raised the prostitution allegations regarding himself, claiming he and his family had been threatened.
(5) I’m an entrepreneur, I have several business interests. I pretty much do as I please with my time and have done for many years.
guest – LOL re the clever comebacks
Regarding the FTC disclosure I’m not American, so it wouldn’t apply to me anyway. Having said that there is a disclaimer on the top right of my blog.
Well, the FTC disclosure rule would apply to Amway if it came out that they were paying people to shill for them. They’re American (ulp). There’s been big backlashes against companies when stuff like that came out, like a blog secretly financed by Edelman on behalf of Walmart. Not that Amway has a big reputation for honesty that would be tarnished.
I’m not a fan of Amway or MLM in general, but I think violating people’s right to privacy as commenters, etc. on the Internet is much more damaging than the propaganda spewed by MLM zealots. It’s a discussion, a debate folks. You get unlimited chances to make your points and plead your case. There’s no excuse for exposing identities behind screennames except for extreme cases or illegal activity, IMHO.
Leave people’s families out of it. I think the people on both sides of these feuds are deranged, why make their families suffer more? Isn’t it enough that their Dads/Husbands/Sons/Daughters spend more time on their computers than with them? That they walk around the house grumbling about people named JoeCool, IBO Fightback, Tex and Shekhar? Next thing your cyberenemies will be showing up at your doorstep. Back it off, dudes.
You guys should seriously consider agreeing to go back and delete the identities and personal info. The reputation you save may be your own. And lighten the F up.
Lucky for me, “guest” is my real name so no one can “out” me.
IBOFightback aka insider aka David Steadson continues his pedantry ad nauseum. For some reason, he just cannot handle the fact that his arguing points have all been dismantled by the Amway critics – because the facts are on our side. And furthermore, IBOFB made allegations against me, none of them have even been proven. Who made him judge, jury and executioner?
It is a fact that more than 99% of IBOs on the system lose money. It is a fact that there is no unbiased evidence to indicate that the system works. It is a fact that Amway has a poor retention rate for both IBOs and customers.
People who allegedly reached Amway Nrivana (residual income, walking the beaches) are like Sasquatch, Many have heard of them but no bonafide proof of their existence. The poot retention rate of IBOs and customers support this point.
The products (some may be good) are over priced because the 30% bonuses Amway pays out are part of the product cost. Unless you are basically a platinum receiving 25%. you don’t get a good value. The majority rank and file IBOs in the 3% bonus bracket end up doing the most work and getting the smallest bonus.
Most of the content of the “tools” have no value outside of the Amway business and the tools business itself looks and appears to be an illegal pyramid. The tools business has never been investigated by the FTC.
Many of the tool kingspins have lied and deceived downline. Some continue to do it today.
Those are the facts. IBOFB can dispute them but they are still facts.
Unbelievable……outing people??? Personal jabs at each other???? Where does it end???? We aren’t politicians here people, bringing personal issues in to discredit ones position is just appalling. Stop the insanity people. To go to such lengths to win a debate that you’re not going to get paid for just seems ridiculous. Why do you care so much ??? So you tried being an IBO and it didn’t work out for you you make it your lifes mission to destroy the company??? Get a life, move on. There are literally thousands of people that work for this company and make money. Thousands more have tried and failed. The company doesn’t seem to be my cup of tea but why should I make it my life mission to try and discredit the likes of shekar and company.??? It works for him and I commend him on his effort. How much money does he make??? WHO CARES??? The fact is he is happy doing what he’s doing so respect it and move on. It’s not like he’s here trying to recruit people for his down line or completely mislead people. He’s simply in here defending his passion. Why discourage that?? Maybe he’s makin money and he’s happy…
This is all my opinion but really people, come on. Get a life it’s just getting pathetic
Good points, Stefan. But it’s gone too far for them to drop it.
I propose a duel.
Not a to-the-death duel, but maybe 6 rounds in a boxing ring.
Or a hot-dog eating contest.
Paintball duel? Chili cookoff? Talent show?
Pie-baking contest?
One is in UK, one is in Hawaii, right?
The halfway point is right around Moline, IL.
Let’s all go. If IBOFB wins, we all join his downline.
If joecool wins, we’ll chip in and send him to Miss Kitty’s Luv Shack on Rt. 12 for “the works”.
Once we have brokered a lasting peace, we all win.
Who’s down for Moline?
Shekar: See you in Moline?
LOL
Make it full contact MMA and I’m all in
You should all come to Hawaii and I’ll challenge IBOFightback to a surfing contest. If you decide on a lying contest, IBOFB will win hands down.
OK, we’ll make it Hawaii and whichever one of you pays my airfare and expenses wins.
And no, shekhar, you can’t stay in my room.
IBOFB will pay your airfare with the millions he makes from Amway.
You can easily tell that Amway is a complete scam. How?
Whatever percentage you choose of $0.00 will always be $0.00
So if you get 10 “distributors under” you, you’ll get X% of their sales. But X% of nothing is still zero. So unless they actually go out and sell some soap, you’re going to get X% of nothing.
But, of course, they don’t want to go out and sell soap. That’s not where the “big money” is. They want to sign up more “distributors.” So they all manage to go out and sign up 10 people under each of them.
Oh boy, now you’re really raking it in, right? Because you’ve got “distributors under distributors under you.” Now you’re getting 2X% of their sales. But, since nobody’s still selling any soap, your “percentage” is still zip-point-zero dollars.
Ooooh, you make it to the big leagues. You’re now a “double diamond distributor.” But nobody “under” you is going out to sell any soap, because that’s not where the big bucks are. They’re all out trying to suck their friends and family into the scam.
How do I know nobody is actually out selling soap? When was the last time you saw an Amway product in anybody’s home that didn’t “work” for Amway?
My husband is in Amway for the 2nd time, 1st time was 15 years ago and it was a no go. Alot of time and money spent, I was involved the first time too. About 3 years ago he came to me and wanted to try it again, I was internally digusted, but knew I couldn’t stop him. Anyway, thousands spent both times with small checks in return. We could have a bigger home by now and perhaps a second home with all the money spent. My husband just spends all our money on products from Amway to reach certain levels each month, all the products are inflated prices. It is killing us financially and he still is brainwashed. No profit, no business, just a money pit of hobby. Our marriage is almost over, not that it is Amway’s fault, but the local higher ups at the meetings know this and just keep pontificating to him!! Don’t they see he has been doing this for years with no prospects in his group! You would think they would tell him to save his marriage, but they brainwash people.
I’ve been assuming that Ambots are motivated purely by greed and knowingly lie to others simply to get their money. But Shekhar and Laura’s husband have been losing money for over three years. It’s obvious to everyone (maybe even themselves) it’ll never get better. Why are they so desperate to cling to the myth of wealth-without-working that they’ll work so hard to believe?
Is it that they have evangelized to loudly they’re embarrassed to admit they were wrong?
Or they get more emotional payoff from their Ambuddies than from their own marriages?
Or are the illusions of Amway like a drug they can’t live without?
Reading Laura’s sad story, it sounds like her husband is an addict and Amway is his drug. I wonder if anyone has drawn that parallel to Amway (and MLM in general) being like a drug for an addict? Even when addicts know it is killing them or destroying the ones they love, they can’t help but choose the comfort of their drug’s illusions. Is that what Amway is like for the true zealots?
Has anyone heard of an IBO’s family and friends having an intervention, like for an addict?
And if Amway is like a bad habit or a drug addiction, what do you make of IBOFB (David Steadson) who promotes and defends Amway like his life depended on it?
People’s personal finances are private and others have no right to ask for it… HOWEVER, when you are presenting an investment, be it a business, stocks, etc, you HAVE to have the finance records to back it up. This makes LOGICAL sense, does it not?
Shekar, you do not have to divulge your personal income, but if you want to be credible and genuinely have people invest in this business, you must show them your sales and costs related to Amway.
In a business, you as the proprietor will only get of it as much as you put in. You most likely will not see a profit within the first year- but you will see sales. So to all you IBOs touting that it’s ok you’re not making profits the first few years, at least show me sales. Proof that you are moving product; proof that you are selling to consumers.
I don’t care about any other “information” going around the interenet, good or bad. Show me your sales numbers, I can compute a forecast, and if there is profit to be made, I will join under you. Not only that, I will get everyone around me to join in and we will pay upfront cash for the starter kits. So if you live in the US, show us proof (ie. a Schedule C tax form) and I will join immediately. Any takers?
I don’t have a lot to say, I don’t even know details about how the company works, but I do want to share my experience. My father has a tendency to trust people who tell him he can make “easy” money. He is a very honest man, don’t take me wrong, but he is also very naive. We have lost a lot of money every time he gets involved in some sort of “business”. When I was about 10 years old my father became involved with Amway. He was completely brainwashed by the idea. Everyday, while we were in the car driving somewhere, he would listen to these really long, boring tapes. We would beg him to turn it off, but he said he had to listen to them because he needed to learn. I have no idea what he learned, I guess nothing. My mom told him many times that Amway was not a good idea, but he was obsessed. He spent money we didn’t have buying these overpriced, crappy products that we never used, and the stupid tapes he made us listen to. I think he had to pay for seminars too, I am not sure. He tried to get other people to join Amway, but everyone was dodging him. He became this really boring “salesman” nobody wanted to talk to. Bottom line is he never made a dime. It only cost us money. Instead of being an extra income, it became an extra expense that we could not afford. Finally, he ended up getting out. I am not saying it is a scheme, because honestly I don’t know and I could not care less. The truth is, the average Joe that becomes a member doesn’t make any money. The odds are completely against it. My aunt was also a member… I actually thing she was the one who convinced my father to get in… and she didn’t make a dime either. I don’t want to offend anybody, but I have seen the consequences of getting involved with this “company”… I don’t think it is worth the time or the effort.
I have upgraded R’s personal story (above) to its own post because it brings up an important issue: the effect joining Amway or any MLM organization has on the family.
Could subjecting children to high doses of motivational recordings over long periods of time be considered child abuse? I believe even Dick Cheney, who defended waterboarding, would consider what R was subjected to “cruel and unusual punishment.” Comments are invited here:
AMWAY: Is Selling Amway Child Abuse? Amway Kids Weigh In.
Sounds like to me that you all that are against amway should do you research before you smash this company. Simply put you get what you put in. It is a very positive business that want to see people succeed. No correction they, they put the same time in or match your time. Are they getting paid for this? No. You don’t understand the company cause in my word they Build you up after life have beat you down. Maybe you don’t get it cause you are not ready to change. Amway is a strong spiritual based business. It is not a cult. But what you say or what you think simply don’t matter cause that business is still going to be successful and you nine time out of ten will remain broke. Simply put, you have to have to be a giver in order to get back anything. Maybe you should try helping people from the heart and try to give someone else or educate someone on how to buy and save money than to want something giving to you all the time. There are two types of people in this world giver and takers, it sounds to me that those of you against Amway need to reevaluate yourself before you judge. You get back what you out in. P.S. Amway have been a blessing to most people. Its based on you heart condition.
Cassandra the wise:
Thank you for providing some perspective to this crazy conversation.
I understand now that you have to have to be a giver in order to get back anything.
How long have you been part of this spiritual company?
How much do you give every month?
How much do you get back ($$$ I mean).
Thank you.
PS I like your name.
Cassandra, please put down your cup of kool aid for a second.
Nobody is “smashing” anything. We are simply debating the merits of joining Amway and the financial results. Amway itself says their average IBO earns $115 a month gross income. Factoring in business expenses, you can easily see that the average IBO earns very little. There is no assurance that you get back what you put it. I was an IBO at 4000 PV and I made nothing. My bonus money simply got channeled back into tool purchases. My wise and caring upline advised me to do so because It was assurance that I would eventually become a diamond and live in wealth and luxury forever. It was a lie.
You’re likely a new IBO, still enthusiastic about the opportunity that Amway represents. Sadly, most uplines a deceptive when presenting Amway. They will show you the “best case” scenario and not what is likely. And even then, the best case scenario can be fabricated. Do you really think someone making $150,000 a year (average diamond income) can buy mansions and jets in cash?
Please explain how Amway has been a blessing to most people? I believe more people felt blessed after leaving Amway. Good luck Cassandra!
I find the interactions between the person(s) from the Amway meetings and the person(s) against Amway kind of interesting. My husband and I were just approched by a so called member that believes he has a website to “help” him and his wife sell items and wanted us to join them.I was trying to find his website and I was able to type in the “Am” part of Amway, but amway scam titles started to pop up before the site name. That just seem a little suspicious to me, or really anyone not desperate and half asleep watching an infomercial. I think the only way for anyone already involved with this company to relize that you shouldn’t have to pay someone to make money is when they have to sell eveything they already bought, thinking they were starting a business, at thier own rummage sale or moving sale because they had to move in with one of the family members that was once a potential costomer. I personally believe that if your going to pay for working you might as well just got to a REAL college and get a REAL degree to better yourself. BTW anyone with a degree in business would know that’s not how you start a bussiness and most of the Amway participants would do better with a franchises.
I’ve been doing Amway for 6 months now, and still I have no complaints. There’s no quota for me to meet, so if there is a month where I don’t feel like moving my business forward – no problem!
On the other hand, I’ve been receiving an average of $60 a month in bonuses – excluding any quick profit I make from selling energy drinks at my job.
Amway is legit if you’re not a dumbass with your money.
“aparent” – did you actually read what your wrote? You said “you shouldn’t have to pay someone to make money”, ie the $50 to Amway for membership – for which they provide a lot – and then suggested instead franchises, where you pay thousands and even millions of dollars!
“ibofb” did you actually read what “aparent” wrote? He never “suggested” anyone should buy a franchise, he said “if your going to pay for working” they would do better if they bought a franchise or a real business with real customers.
This is one of the things that repulses me about Amway how smarmy the Amway people are about twisting words to deceive. Ibofb tries to make aparent look stupid but really just exposes his own smarmy word twisting dishonesty.
Another thing is that Amway people treat their own purchases as sales. Could you imagine a restaurant owner saying it’s ok he has no customers because he’s eating there for free?
Eric roldan wrote “Amway is legit if you’re not a dumbass with your money.”
If you joined Amway it’s too late. You’re already a dumbass with your money.
Anon, what aparent effectively said was if you’re going pay for a business you’d be better off paying thousands or even million instead of $50, refundable.
Defend it more if you want, you’ll just make yourself look more foolish.
ibofb:
Please adjust your mask to perhaps improve your reading comprehension.
The point was not simply to spend more money (obviously) but that if one wants to go into business and is willing to pay for a program and guidance, one would be better going into a real business, with real customers, like educated grown-ups do, and not waste time and energy with a pseudo-business opportunity cult run by a bunch of weirdo losers who engage in mutual mass delusion and rah rah motivational jerkoff sessions.
You guys are like the high school dungeons and dragons role playing club. Most people regard Amway IBOs as super annoying self-deluded losers to be avoided at all costs. Please hang up your mask, stop embarrassing yourself, and stop tarnishing The Princess Bride. Even the Dread Pirate Roberts would admit that he was just a character in a fairy tale. You spend your days trying to convince imbeciles, cretins, the damaged and the desperate that the Scamway fairy tale is real.
Want to own a business? Start a real business.
“I’ve been receiving an average of $60 a month in bonuses – excluding any quick profit I make from selling energy drinks at my job.”
Eric: What kind of job do you have that you can sell energy drinks?Are you selling to co-workers or customers?
What employer would allow an employee to sell overpriced unhealthy crap at their place of business? It’s likely your jeopardizing your real job (at a real business, I assume, not an MLM club) by selling canned chemicals and definitely hurting your reputation whether you see it or not.
It should be noted that ibofb is the most prolific Amway defender on this planet. But try asking him what his Amway business looks like? 100 PV? 300PV?
He enjoys twisting words and anecdotal stories to make Amway look good but all the evidence you need to know is that the average IBO, excluding people who “do nothing” is $115 a month, and that average includes the Amway diamond millionaires. Another telling fact is that less than 1% of IBOs ever reach the gold/platinum level where you start to earn (about) the equivalence of minimum wage.
Oh poor anon. Is there anything more pitiful than a childish rant accusing other people of juvenile behaviour? I could almost see you pouting.
A real business with real grownups huh? Well, I know a guy with a business that have revenues in excess of $3 billion dollars, and 7 figure net profits.
I suppose since it’s an Amway business it’s not a real business, so no business taxes? Will you speak on his behalf to the IRS? They’ll take you seriously of course ….
Amway, (incl Amway IBOs who treat it that way) is a real business, with real products, and real customers.
I already have other non-Amway businesses, including working on two new startups and evaluating a third. Previously founded, built and sold several others for a profit. What’s your business experience, “anon”?
For that matter, what’s your Amway experience? A global survey by the University of Westminster found that people who had actually bought and used products from direct sales companies (including Amway, which was one of the companies included in their survey) overall had *positive* views of both the products and distributors. The people with overall negative views were the ones who relied almost entirely on hearsay.
You know … hearsay …. like reading yours and joecool’s rubbish on the internet.
I believe one of ibofb’s startup businesses is MLM companies or something similar,
It’s amwazing how ibofb supposedly has all this experience but cannot discern that the Amway opportunity, where less than 1 in 100 people actually make money, is a poor opportunity.
ibofb’s only confirmed level of success is 100 PV, as far as I know.
Hearsay is ibofb’s anecdotal stories. Amway’s own numbers reveal that it’s a poor opportunity.
Sorry, I meant oneof ibofb’s start up companies is reputation management of MLM companies, or something similar. Not sure who would hire him though, seeing the poor job he does in defending Amway.
(Note the smiley?)
See, more hearsay BS from joecool, who seems to think that just because he believes something, ipso facto – it must be true!
Even when people who are obviously going to be better informed tell him it’s not.
Quote: “Eric roldan wrote “Amway is legit if you’re not a dumbass with your money.”
“If you joined Amway it’s too late. You’re already a dumbass with your money.”
ROTFLMAO!
Sorry ibofb, I didn;t “make it up”. you did:
http://network21amway.blogspot.com/2011/04/truth-about-amway.html
david steadson said…
4. A year or more ago I considered starting a company to provide reputation management services to direct selling companies. I believe(d) there was a market for such services and most companies were doing it poorly. A mockup website was created but never finished (hence the amount of “lorem ipsum” text in the site) and the concept was never proceeded with. The company was never formed, never marketed, and never had any clients. The sites and names are now a division of another company I part-own, which has nothing to do with direct sales, and will be focused on internet community building.
April 26, 2011 7:11 PM
I am not at all surprised to find you interpret “A mockup website was created but never finished … and the concept was never proceeded with. The company was never formed, never marketed, and never had any clients” as – ” oneof ibofb’s start up companies is reputation management of MLM companies”
Just more evidence of either (a) your inability to read or (b) your inability to be honest.
Or I suppose possibley (c) both of the above.
Which I guess means you didn’t read and understand that article I directed to you about linking to defamatory information being considered as publishing the defamatory information.
Before you talk about defamation, you should go clean up your own website. I would have a field day going quid pro quo with you and Bridgett Baron.
For prospective IBOs, these are Amway issued snippets:
The average IBO earns $115 a month. IBOs who “did nothing” were not included in this count. This $115 represents gross income and includes Amway millionaire diamonds.
About .5 (one half of one percent) of IBOs reach the Gold/Platinum level where you earn approximately (gross income) the equivalent of full time minimum wage earnings.
And remember, these are Amway facts, not my opinion or experiemce.
Why Do U Guys Look For A Fight About Amway Look i believe Amway Is Not A Scam And Everyone Who Defends It Make Their Good Solid Point But Im Not Going To Trash The Other Side Even Tho they Dont (or Refuse To) Understand..But Let It Go People Do Make Money From Amway Its Perfectly Legal, And HAve Been Credited By Kurt Warner The Football Player,Amway Has its own sports and entertainment venue The Amway Ceter In Orlando, and Major Companies Like Best Buy Who Is Partnered With Them So Those Who Are On The Amway Site Can Go To The Best Buy Or W.e Website And Buy Something And The IBO will Get their poins or w.e.. I Have Never Seen Or Heard An Amway Person Said..”Hey Quit Your Job And Come Work For Me You Can Have A Chance At Making 150,000 Soo U Dont Need A Part-Time Job”. No Obviously Because Its Meant To Be A Second Income But Eventully Hopefully A First And Hopefully…Everything Takes Time Someone Could Still Making 45 dollars a month while that person under him is making 600 dollars thats what makes it legal that theres money flowing up and back down and Yea If u Want more money ure going to want more people but u can still MAKE income on ure own..Its like people said u just got to control the money and i actually tried the energy drink and other stuff and its actually pretty good and some of their stuff are really CONCERTRATED or ORGANIC like they say..Like I Said I See Where Both Sides Come in But Honestly Dont Give Amway Ibos a hardtime like let them do what they want to do and you do what u want to do if they if they make millions Great If Your A Doctor And U Make Millions Great! Dont Worry About EachOther!! The Only Thing That Should be Here On This Post Are Real Amway People And Not Ouside People..Whether Its Someone Who Still Works For Amway Or A Retiree/Someone Who Quit So They Can Give All The Facts Or What They’ve Been Told..
Eric Roldan and Ibofb – So you’re telling me that your safety net, in case anything was to go south, is a $50.00 refundable membership fee? That sound like you trying not to be fully honest about what you’ve really spent. I say this since the person, trying to get me to join this reconstructed pyramid scheme, told me something else. I guess I can sum that up to “he’s just new” and didn’t get to the meeting about half truths yet. I was told the membership fees were $185ish and have a “website” ($25 a month) I have yet to find.
Eric Roldan – So the job in which you sell your energy drinks, did you pay them too when you were hired? I’d also like to know when you said “On the other hand, I’ve been receiving an average of $60 a month in bonuses – excluding any quick profit I make from selling energy drinks at my job.” Is that you total monthly profit from this venture? If so I don’t see how that’s something to use as a “pro” in getting people to agree. I see that as being enough to go into gas so you can pick up and haul the energy drinks and other products to potential customers. I am curious, how much time do you put in to this normally?
Ibofb – I realize what I wrote in the end may have been a little confusing so I will clarify – When I said they would be better off getting a franchise, I meant something in which the company ALREADY had costumers i.e. McDonalds for one. At least with something like McDonalds they already have a customer base and you don’t have to go to everyone you know trying to sell them stuff they probably don’t need. My understanding is when you have a business you have some kind of niche so customers would come to you right?
“ I already have other non-Amway businesses, including working on two new startups and evaluating a third. Previously founded, built and sold several others for a profit.”
So why would you sell a good business? Can you tell me what Amway sells specifically, and what your businesses do?
As far as I’m concerned I still say if you want to spend money like that you’re better off getting a degree so you can move up or on from where you’re currently at. Not to metion the fact that most people qualify for assistance with school. There is not nor will there ever be a way to get rich quick, except, for the people that swear they know how and sell you a book or DVD of common sense tip. I’ve seen thousands of these and always thought why would someone by information? This idea is a pipe dream just like winning the lottery. Can either of you honestly tell me what you expect to get out of this venture? I’m asking what you were told as far as how long it will take for you to be able to make this worthwhile.
Anon on August 12th, 2011 7:22 am Thank you, I’m glad I didn’t have to explain what I said to at least one person. I find it interesting though that two different people read the same post and understood two different things.
“This idea is a pipe dream just like winning the lottery.” ~ aparent
For anyone who’s not sure what selling a pipe dream looks like, it looks like this:
“I know a guy with [an Amway] business that have revenues in excess of $3 billion dollars, and 7 figure net profits.” ~ibofb
As you all will notice, Amway people love to talk about how much their friend or “this guy I know” makes but get all defensive when asked what they make. None of the Shekhars or ibofbs will ever say take a look at my check from last month, suckers!
If there’s a guy you know who brought in 3 billion it just shows how much deluded dreamers are willing to donate in pursuit of their pipe dreams.
Anon – exactly, I see that too. “One person is racking in the big bucks, if can they I can too with having to do no work.” When I told our friend that we had no time or money, I got a resopnse back that sounded like ” Yeah, ok, I understand” Then pitch pitch pitch. If you seem to have to sell the company more then your “Products” then there is a problem.
BTW everyone I looked up some stuff and found this website:
http://www.ftc.gov
I just typed in Amway and found plenty of complaints and lawsuits. Anyone for can feel free to check it out too, I still feel something’s not right even more now with this site. I also went to the BBB and most of the listing were titled as Multi-level marketing. WTF! That just sounds like more BS.
All in all, I’m not here to change anyones mind, I just want to speak mine. I could really care less if someone really wanted to join this venture, it thier choice. I just want it to be known – if you’re trying to sell something over and over to the same person that keeps saying “no” you may want to respect that or you’re going to be in a situation where everyone just avoids you. Just start to take no for an asnwer, you could become worst then the annoying telemarketers.
The bottom line is Amway is a scam. Here’s the first thread of my blog, feel free to visit to find more information:
The Case Against the Amway Tool Scam!
ARE YOU A MEMBER OF THE PRESS, LAW ENFORCEMENT, LEGISLATURE, OR DO YOU KNOW SOMEONE WHO IS? CONTACT ME AND WE’LL BLOW THE LID OFF OF THE AMWAY TOOL SCAM!!!
Did you know you can translate this site into dozens of other languages? Just click this link click on the link in the middle of the next page, then select your language from the drop down list at the top! HAPPY BLOGGING! ITS A SMALL (BLOGGING) WORLD, AFTER ALL, IT’S A SMALL (BLOGGING) WORLD, AFTER ALL,…http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxvlKp-76io or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIabgPX14R4 or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_z_aoKufv0 LOL!!!
Introduction
Welcome to THE Amway blog that represents the equivalent of the EIB made famous by someone I have a LOT of respect for, Rush Limbaugh. I trust he will allow some flexibility to borrow the initials EIB (Excellence In Broadcasting) and reuse the initials to stand for Excellence In Blogging. In fact, just like Rush, I can successfully debate other bloggers, as well as the “best and brightest” from Amway, with half my brain tied behind my back, just to make it fair. Not with Rush’s Golden Microphone (although I can do with with any microphone, telephone, loud speaker, or no sound equipment at all), but with my Golden EIB Keyboard.
Notes to Amway’s scumbag legal team protecting the Amway Tool Scam:
1. One of the things Rush states is you have to listen to him for at least 6 weeks to get a feel for the show. Similarly, you have to read this blog over a similar period of time to get a feel for the satire and sarcasm. Taking individual posts in isolation and trying to make a point in court or elsewhere, particularly by focusing on a portion of a post, such as a headline, will no longer score you legal or any other types of points, as this blog must be consumed in larger portions in order to be digested properly.
2. ANY references to violence in my communications, whether on this blog, other blogs, emails, verbally, etc., are NOT meant in the physical/literal meaning, unless clearly stated otherwise.
3. ANY reference to a potential sexual act is meant in the pejorative sense, not the sexual/physical act meaning, unless clearly stated otherwise.
We now return to our regularly scheduled Amway Tool Scam criticism, and what you will find here is an accurate, fact-filled, engaging, intelligent, thought provoking discussion, as well as including, at no extra charge, an ample supply of humor and satire. I compare it to a traffic circle in Europe, with cars flying around, entering, exiting, and seemingly at first glance a disorganized mess. In reality, it is organized chaos. However, just like listening to Rush, if you stay and learn, your opinion will be forever changed. Unless you’re stupid, then you’ll stay stupid! LOL
Above all, this site is specifically designed to be an ongoing and advanced course in Amway Tool Scam studies, with the “101″ course below. Also – don’t…doubt…me.
So hang on tight, learn, ask questions, make comments, etc.
Notes:
1. Be sure to get the latest information regarding the frivolous/SLAPP civil lawsuit Amway has against me, here’s my counter lawsuit for FRAUD:, and here’s some information regarding the original lawsuit from Amway, where they were stomped on during the August 2010 TRO (Temporary Restraining Order) hearing: (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation for a definition of SLAPP) .
2. The post date has been modified to maintain this thread at the top of the blog.
3. Scroll down to find a new thread.
4. See the “TALK TO TEX” link to the left if you want to email or talk with me on the telephone.
Q: What’s with the above sign?A: The above “No Tool Scam” sign was taped in the front of the table I was sitting at when invited to attend a biennial Amway public relations meeting, along with 4 other IBOs, in Prague, Czech Republic in the spring of 2008. There were about 50-60 Amway PR employees from around the world attending, and during my 2 minute soapbox opportunity at this roundtable meeting to discuss how blogging has impacted Amway and business/society in general, I railed against the ATS. I have NOT been invited back….
MISSION:
The Net Profit Group’s Mission is to bring honesty, transparency, and openness to the Amway business, to ensure it becomes an ethical, moral, and legal business.
The PROBLEM:
Amway is a scam, and here’s why: Amway pays out as little money as they can get away with, so they support the higher level IBOs ripping off their downline via the tool scam.
As a result, about 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, while the top 1% make several TIMES more from their Amway tool scam than from the Amway products. This was made illegal in India in 2005 and the UK in 2008, (see below for more information), but our FTC is unable to pull their heads out of their “backsides” to stop it here. I suggest you also forward the information to everyone you know, so they don’t get scammed.
The SOLUTION:
Amway needs to bring the following changes to the U.S.:
1. Force the upline LCKs (Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”) to reduce tool prices, as well as
2. Share major functions with all local IBOs.
A method to do this would be to sell a colored ticket to those in the LOS/LOA, and a different color to those outside the LOS/LOA. Allow the LOS/LOA IBOs to enter certain function sessions early to cover LOS/LOA specific information, then allow the others to enter 30-45 minutes later. Rich DeVos demanded the upline reduce their tool profit in 1983, but then did NOTHING to enforce the mandate.
LATEST NEWS
2/2/11 In a HUGE, almost $9 million turnaround, Amway is now settling the 12 year old lawsuit with the Morrison gang:
1/20/11 Even bigger news than from April 2010, it became known there was a December 28, 2010 judge’s decision to reject the proposed settlement, I have added my analysis here:
11/3/10 Pokorny proposed lawsuit settlement for $155 million: http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-11-03/ex-amway-unit-to-pay-155-million-in-suit-lawyers-say.html
4/21/10 This is HUGE news, the Pokorny/Blenn v. Amway/Quixtar LCKs and the tool scamming LCKs finally go to a real, open court:
The Earliest Evidence of the Amway Tool Scam
Rich DeVos made a series of recordings in 1983, called the “Directly Speaking” recordings. This was a double entendre, as today’s Platinum level IBO was called a “Direct” distributor back then. One of the recordings can be listened to, the other was transcribed, and both can be found here:
http://www.amquix.info/amway_directly_speaking.html Do a word search for “twenty”, and you will find Rich declares 20% is the limit on the tool profits allowed. He never followed up on this, and virtually NOTHING has happened to fix the problem….which brings us to the issue, how much DO the upline make on the tools? For this answer, see below.
The Real Amway Tool Profit Size
It has been well established the upline make several TIMES more from the tools than from Amway. First, “tools” and a couple of other terms should be defined. Tools refer to anything besides money used to buy Amway products that create profit for the upline. This includes money used to buy tickets for the Open, monthly Seminar, and Major Functions, the CD/DVD’s and other audio/visual content, whether hard copy or online, books, voice mail, web sites, etc.
There are numerous sources of the above statement, including but not limited to:
1. Former Executive Diamond, on his very own blog recently: http://orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2008/7/2/3773065.html#comments see post Thu 03 Jul 2008 12:51 AM EDT (Update: Orrin’s late 2010 settlement with Amway included him removing lots of content, including anything that put Amway in a bad light, no matter how accurate it may be. Therefore, the above link no longer works. However, yours truly made a copy of the statement before it was taken down:
http://orrinwoodward.blogharbor.com/blog/_archives/2008/7/2/3773065.html#comments
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Amway Australia Letter to IBOs
by Orrin Woodward on Thu 03 Jul 2008 12:51 AM EDT | Profile | Permanent Link
Anonymous, Not at all. If you read my Quixtar history link off to the side, it will give a fairly detailed history of my involvement with Amway and Quixtar and my upline. I qualified diamond in 2000. Missed qualification in 2001 – the year Chris and Terri qualified. Qualified founder diamond in 2002, EDC in 2003 and 2004. 2005 qualified founders diamond and 2006 and would of been 2007 EDC again. I made between 300k and 600k every year after 2001. My income in MonaVie in a couple of months has been higher than any single year in Amway/Quixtar. Another example of why Amway is not competitive. I received 400k in bonuses after 2 months in MonaVie and that does not include the free Mercedes, free trips to Zermatt ski resort, Disney World, 14 day Meditteranean cruise, and 12 person Penthouse Suite in Atlantis. Laurie and I also qualified for over 60 hours of jet credit hours on the MonaVie jet credits program. I won’t have to fly commerical again for quite a while!! Oh and yes the tool incomes were 4 to 5 times higher than the Amway bonuses for all emeralds and above, but in MonaVie the tool side is 50% or less of our MonaVie bonus. If the bonuses go higher then we lower the tool prices even further than the 33% drop we already have reduced them. Now you know why I worked on the board for 3 years to fix this and get Amway to pay their leaders a reasonable amount for the incredible work involved! Now let’s see if David fightback will be truthful and accurate. thanks, Orrin
Reply
2. Former Diamond Don Lorencz, a statement archived from his very own blog: http://web.archive.org/web/20051124194000/http://donjlorencz.texerta.com/
3. A group, commonly known for one of the Emeralds involved, Joe Morrison, tried to split from their upline tool system, and got put out of business by the upline threatening anyone who speaks for the Morrison group to be “uninvited” to any speaking opportunities with Yager. Why would all of these IBO’s give up their entire business if the tools were not THE major source of profits? The lawsuits themselves indicate most of the profit for the higher pins is from tools. If incorrect, I believe the plaintiffs could be charged with a variety of legal violations: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/morrison.htm
4. Here’s another one, from a former Direct Distributor (now known as Platinum): http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/hayden.htm
5. And another, from former Double Diamond Brig Hart, who is currently scamming his Mona Vie downline: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/hart.htm
6. And another, from former Crown Ken Stewart: http://www.mlmsurvivor.com/stewart_v_gooch_comm.htm
7. Here’s the youtube video from Andy Andrews at a major function, while he was still an active IBO, and shortly before he was terminated: http://www.amquix.info/video/Andy_Andrews_quixtar_part1.wmv and http://www.amquix.info/video/Andy_Andrews_quixtar_part2.wmv. There are 2 key parts, both on part 2. At the 2 minute mark, Andy admits several times more is made from tools than from Amway, and a couple minutes later states Amway mandates only 2% of IBOs should make money from tools, and the other 98% shouldn’t even know there is an opportunity to make money from tools. Can YOU say FRAUD??!?
8. One more, from former Diamond Bo Short (the transcript and video links from the 2004 Dateline show are below):
http://web.archive.org/web/20060207071939/msnbc.msn.com/id/4375477/
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-215989802739458876
9. Read every link on this page for a full understanding of the size and scope of the Amway Tool Scam:
http://www.amquix.info/shs_v_alticor-complaint.html
Which says in part, “41. On knowledge and belief, the Amway kingpins’ tool and function income grew to vastly exceed their income from the Amway business by
a ratio of nine-to-one or more. And the profits they derived from tools and functions amounted to many, many millions.”
10. Not to mention an obviously perplexed Michigan judge, who was incredulous (it’s called perjury, but as this information wasn’t the focus of the lawsuit and would be difficult to prove, they’ll probably let it go) when Mr. Dickie, the CEO of Orrin’s tool company couldn’t even estimate how much Orrin and the other high level “leaders” made via the tools: (no longer available) http://www.freetheibo.com/pdfs/November-Judge-Sullivan-Opinion-Order-Quixtar-v-Woodward-not-contempt.pdf Here’s the testimony, where Mr. Dickie denied having a clue how much was made via tools: (no longer available) http://freetheiboblog.typepad.com/quixtar/files/october_17_court_transcripts.pdf
11. The developments in the UK, where the judge ruled the “voluntary” action taken by Amway in May 2007 to shut down all tool sales should be lifted, but ONLY if there is ZERO tool profit. I am not in favor of zero tool profit, as I believe in free enterprise, capitalism, and the profit motive. However, these terms have NOTHING to do with the upline referring to their IBO’s as “teammates”, “business partners”, and other similar terms, then lying (by omission) about making most of their money via the tools. See the ruling here, particularly paragraph 57c: http://www.amwaywiki.com/images/6/60/BERR_vs_Amway_UK_-_Judgement.pdf
and the IBOAI spin here: http://www.iboai.com/Quixtar-Info-News-QuixtarNews-Quixtar-Amway-Global-AmwayUK.asp
12. India has also taken strong action, severely limiting tool prices, as seen in the last few pages of this document: http://www.amway.in/Docs/roc_eng.zip and
discussed here:
13. Here’s a new story from http://www.blackhatworld.com/blackhat-seo/making-money/185451-can-we-sell-amway-health-productsonline.
html#post1671670 start with the March 31, 2010 7:36 p.m. post.
14. And another new story, where one LCK tried to sue another, and got slammed for a $5 MILLION judgment against him: http://www.amquix.info/amway_gala_britt.html I can probably come up with others, but these are adequate to prove my position.
FAQs
Welcome to the Frequently Asked Questions section! Type in any question you want answered below, and if it is considered an FAQ type question, I’ll address it.
You can find an FAQ by doing a key word search on this page.
————————————————————————————-
Q: If the ATS is so bad, why hasn’t the government shut it down yet?
A: We’re talking about the same government that didn’t shut down Bernie Madoff, despite his case repeatedly being served on a silver platter. I believe the FTC
is, in this order, incompetent, bureaucratic, and politically influenced.
————————————————————————————-
Q: Do you think tools should be free?
A: No, I think the tool prices should cover the production costs and provide the upline with a reasonable amount of profit. Rich DeVos indicated 20% of the Amway profit is his limit, I could go as high as 50%. The major point is the amount should be VISIBLE and should cover ALL tools, not just some of them.
————————————————————————————-
Q: I thought pyramid schemes, like Amway, are illegal, especially if a majority of the products aren’t sold to non-IBO/distributors?
A: No, see this FTC letter: http://www.marketwaveinc.com/FTC_Letter.pdf What the FTC does find objectionable is the “$10,000 pencil” scenario, where the new entrants buy a product one time, and depend on new entrants to fund their profit in like manner.
————————————————————————————-
Q: Why are the tools so profitable?
A: There are 4 major reasons.
1) The markup is very high. For example, full production costs of a CD is about $1, and they are sold for $6-8 dollars. Books can be purchased for far less than half the normal retail cost in bulk. Function costs are covered by a small number of attendees, the rest are pure profit.
2) Marketing costs are near zero, and the IBOs are a captive market, as the tools are promoted as THE shortcut to success (in reality, the tools ARE the “success”).
3) The payout is not shared with the downline, only Platinums and above, and
4) A significant amount of money is spent on the tools, which include various meetings, books, CDs, web sites, voice mail, etc., and not just “standing order” items, but also extra tools for prospecting, followups, having extras on hand in the event a downline’s business grows rapidly, etc.
————————————————————————————-
Q: But don’t the rules explicitly say the tools are optional, and the upline has to help an IBO even if they don’t buy the tools?
A: Technically and theoretically, yes and yes. However, in practice, there are several factors to consider, resulting in these rules having negligible impact. First, the tools are heavily promoted, the new IBO typically has never run a business, the upline is often a trusted friend, relative, workmate, etc., and is taught to transfer giving advice to the upline, as “they know what they’re doing,” and other statements, such as “they have the fruit on the tree,” etc. Also, the rules
require all tools shown to prospects to be approved by Amway, and the intricate, complex, and nebulous rules are difficult to understand for an experienced IBO, let alone a new one, PLUS it would probably take several MONTHS to get approval from Amway. Combine this with a new IBO not understanding the technicalities of all of the above, which would be required to buy prospect facing tools and NOT all the other tools, and you have a full fledged SCAM. By personal experience, and reviewing others’ comments on various blogs over the years, when an IBO stops ordering standing order tools, they immediately are no longer treated as a “best buddy,” but are COMPLETELY ignored by the upline. Contact Amway, you say? I did, they did NOTHING.
————————————————————————————-
Q: But doesn’t Amway have an arbitration process you can use to settle disputes?
A:Yes, and that process has been declared “unconscionable” and “illusory” by several U.S. Federal judges, including:
1. http://www.metnews.com/articles/2010/poko042110.htm (Pokorny)
2. http://www.mlmsurvivor.com/NoBSMAA.htm (Nitro/Judge Sweeney)
3. http://www.amquix.info/pdfs/morrison/Morrision_06-20138-CV0.wpd.pdf (Morrison)
4. http://www.amquix.info/shs_v_alticor_dorr.html (Nitro/Judge Dorr)
5. http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/a/amway/pennsylvania-court-denies-quixtar-arbitration-in-scheibeler-case/ (Scheibeler)
6. http://www.amquix.info/pdfs/simmons/simmons_order_arbitration.pdf (Simmons, and technically, this judge used the term illusory)
7. http://www.amquix.info/pdfs/Georgia_court_non_compete.pdf (Campbell)
If I missed any, please let me know by leaving a comment!
————————————————————————————-
Find Out If YOUR Upline Is Scamming YOU
IBOs often say, “But my upline isn’t like that, they even SHOWED me how much tool profit they make! In a word, BULLSHIT! There will always be exceptions, but here’s how you tell whether your upline is scamming you or not. It’s very simple, in breaks down into P&P. P&P stands for prices and practices.
1. Prices – How much do your CD/DVDs cost? Open meetings? Monthly seminars? Major functions? Voice mail? Web sites? Here’s the typical prices, so if yours are
similar, there’s only 3 options: First, and by far the most likely, your upline Emeralds and above make about what is described under the “Tool Profit Size”
section. Or, your upline is MUCH less efficient at producing the tools. However, for a typical $7 CD, full production costs are about $1, so even doubling the
production cost to $2 results in a $5, instead of $6 profit, so this option is HIGHLY unlikely. And here’s a guy who offers CDs for as little as 85 CENTS each (2010 pricing), I doubt there’s an LCK who can’t at least match him: http://www.marketwaveinc.com/viewproduct.asp?id=4 Lastly, the system OWNER may be keeping more of the profit for themselves, but then they are setting up their organization for a mutiny, in which case they would lose ALL of their revolting downline ATS profit. Here’s the typical prices: CD – $7, Open meeting $5, monthly Seminar meeting $25, Major Functions $125, web sites $10/month (some LOS groups charge less for CDs but more for their web sites, so watch out for this bait-and-switch within a bait-and-switch), voice mail $25/month.
2. Practices – Does your upline have everyone fly/drive all over the country to attend these meetings? This costs you thousands of dollars/year for the travel, hotels, meals, etc., and if the solution at the top of this post were enacted, this cost would come WAY down.
Why Amway or LCKs Do NOT Have a Prayer Suing Me
Since Amway has now sued me, supposedly for scaring off IBOs cheating on Craigslist, by telling them they are cheating, telling them about the tool scam, and referring to them as “fucking assholes,” why do I say Amway doesn’t have a prayer? Besides LOSING the Temporary Restraining Order on August 18th, why is this? Simple. What I say is true.
Here’s a couple of examples, relatively speaking, trite compared to the ATS, which resulted in lawsuits, or threats of lawsuits:
1. Was Jody Victor’s first wife was painted over in a portrait at Quixtar headquarters in Ada, MI? http://www.iboai.com/IBOAI-Info-News-IBOAINews-
ScottLarsenResponse4.asp
2. Here’s another one regarding the details of qualifications: http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/forum/viewtopic.php?
t=2684&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=jody+victor&start=45 see post Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:52 am
3. Here’s one related to a custom SA-4400 gross profit disclosure form: http://www.iboai.org/IBOAI-Info-News-IBOAINews-ScottLarsenResponse2.asp
So, you can easily see the LCKs are ready and willing to sue over a painting, some pots and pans, and a standard form, but when it comes to the mult-billion
dollar, multi-million IBO, multi-decade tool scam, the crickets are chirping: http://www.soundboard.com/sb/crickets_sounds_audio.aspx Listen to the audio
from various countries!
What Else Can We Do
I very much dislike whiners who don’t offer solutions. If you’re going to complain, offer a solution as well. Here’s what else we can do:
1. Do a google news search for popular and disgusting stories, the current ones I use are Tiger Woods and his sex-capades, and Bernie Madoff, as well as any stories containing the word “Amway.” Then add a canned message. Here’s the canned messages I add:
Who cares about Tiger? He should join Amway, as they also screw anything that moves, and have ripped off millions of people for several decades, to the tune of 10s of billions of dollars. Amway is a scam, and here’s why: Amway pays out as little money as they can get away with, so they support the higher level IBOs ripping off their downline via the tool scam. As a result, about 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, while the top 1% make several TIMES more from their Amway tool scam than from the Amway products. This was made illegal in the UK in 2008, but our FTC is unable to pull their heads out of their butts to stop it here. Read about it on my blog, I suggest you start here: and forward the information to everyone you know, so they don’t get scammed.
If you think Madoff ran a huge scam, here’s another example that has ripped off millions of people for several decades, to the tune of 10s of billions of dollars: Amway is a scam, and here’s why: Amway pays out as little money as they can get away with, so they support the higher level IBOs ripping off their downline via the tool scam. As a result, about 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss, while the top 1% make several TIMES more from their Amway tool scam than from the Amway products. This was made illegal in the UK in 2008, but our FTC is unable to pull their heads out of their butts to stop it here. Read about it on my blog, I suggest you start here: and forward the information to everyone you know, so they don’t get scammed.
2. Post the time/locations of all meetings you know of in the comments below, including opens, monthly seminars, and major functions. This will allow local people
to show up and educate the prospects and IBOs attending with ATS information.
3. Contact the FTC, FBI, your state Attorneys General, county District Attorney, local law enforcement, the DSA, your U.S. and state senator/representative,
national and local media, etc.
4. Set up a conference call, by proposing a day/time in the comments below. The normal time for these calls is 8:00 p.m. Central time. The conference number is 760-569-6000, the access code is 975016#. Dial *67 before dialing the number to keep your number confidential. The only cost is your normal long distance charge to the above southern California area code, there is no extra charge for the conference call itself.
5. Here’s some info on upcoming N21 meetings: http://www.n21asia.com/meetings/search.cfm?RefId=SPe71033a9b2b And here’s efinity: http://www.myefinity.com/2010/04/150#comment-46380926 (you need to click on “Event Search”)
If you want to assist educating attendees regarding the ATS, feel free to put messages with this web site name and leave with the cars in the parking lot, hand to the attendees, and/or carry signs regarding the ATS. Ensure you follow local laws governing anything considered a solicitation, demonstration, or protest. Educate, disrupt, and destroy the ATS!
6. Be creative, and add other ideas below:
Glossary
ATS – Amway Tool Scam, the symbiotic relationship between Amway and the LCKs. When the LCKs asked for more of the Amway profit, Amway turned them down, but then ignored the FACT the upline was TOTALLY misrepresenting the business model by showing the marketing plan, yet leaving the ATS out of the presentation.
Directly Speaking – The name of the recordings made by Rich DeVos in 1983, in which Rich complained about the ATS, but then did NOTHING meaningful to fix. This is a double entendre, as the speeches were very direct talks, and the primary audience was the Direct Distributors. It should be noted most of these recordings have been destroyed, as this was the general order from the LCKs. However, two of these recordings, which address the ATS, are available here, one of them was transcribed, the other is still in audio format: http://www.amquix.info/amway_directly_speaking.html Also see IBO.
IBO – stands for Independent Business Owner. The former name, Distributor, is no longer appropriate, as IBOs do very little distribution, as all products are now shipped from Amway to every individual IBO, unlike the old practice of Amway shipping the products to the Direct Distributor (named because this individual worked “Directly” with Amway), and each of their personally sponsored distributors picking up their order from their Direct Distributor, then providing the products to their own personally sponsored distributors, etc., until all the products reach their intended distributor for personal use and customer sales.
LCK – Lying Cowardly “Kingpin”. For most groups, it starts at the Emerald level. There are actually 3 levels, the highest is LYING COWARDLY “KINGPIN” – the 20 or so owners of the large ATS companies. The next level is Lying Cowardly “Kingpins”, the midlevel, below the owners, but major Diamond and above pins, and finally the lying cowardly “kingpins”, the Emeralds and first level Diamonds. LCK also refers to IBOs, former IBOs, and Amway employees, specifically the ones who are familiar with the ATS, but do not actively speak out against it.
Platinum IBO – an IBO attaining 7,500 PV of volume, with certain time and width requirements. Formerly known as Direct Distributor, also see IBO.
Tools – ALL sources of profit for the upline from the downline, except for the Amway products. This includes, but is not limited to, books, CD/DVDs, the various meetings, (such as Open/ Opportunity meetings, monthly Seminars, Major Functions), websites, voice mail, etc.
ibofb
More content coming soon, in the meantime, see http://moneywatch.bnet.com/career-advice/blog/other-8-hours/why-you-should-join-amway/919/?tag=activemw#
comments comment #509. You can also do a word search for “steadson” on the same page to find more juicy information. ibofb/insider/david steadson (the man of many identities) is, by far, the most prolific LCS ATS supporter. He is a very intelligent fellow, but will use that intelligence in extremely devious ways. Below is a list of items, to give you insight into this character. I should point out I’ve been blogging against him since 2005, and he has kicked me off his site twice (he allowed me back on temporarily, then kicked me off again). I met him when we were both invited, along with 3 other IBOs, to the Prague, Czech Republic in the spring of 2008, to do a tabletop for 50-60 Public Relations Amway employees from around the world:
1. His ego is HUGE, here’s an example: When we were in Prague, somehow a discussion evolved into the temperature that degrees Fahrenheit and Celsius are the same number. Given my technical background and interest in mathematics, I knew the answer is -40 degrees. ibofb immediately and dismissively insisted it was not -40 degrees, but in that general area. I immediately knew he was thinking of degrees Kelvin, and restated it was -40, which is slightly offset from the Kelvin scale. He became agitated I would disagree with him, and again insisted in a blustery manner I was wrong. As I was not in a mood to interact with him, I dropped the discussion.
If you were an IBO within the past 4 years, and would like to recover your lost Amway Tool Scam money, contact me to join my lawsuit against Amway.
The more people who join, the greater profit each of us will make, so inform anyone else you know who qualifies about this opportunity as well. Sort of like network marketing!!!
ROFLMAO! See how goes like “aparent” and “anon” just love those straw men? Make stuff up about Amway and then argue against it as evidence that Amway’s bad!
Shall we just make up other stuff and use it as evidence Amway is good?
Where, aparent, did anyone ever saying anything about making money without work? The guy making millions spent decades building a business of that size. I’m not building an Amway business, so why do you think I should be making money?
Or is it a scam because you think you *should* be able to make money without working hard over time?
IBOFB: “Where, aparent, did anyone ever saying anything about making money without work?”
Any group that promotes the residual income and building it once apparently does so.
I’m fairly certain, based on the UK actions, that NETWORK 21 was doing this.
Working hard for years and years so that you’ve developed a business that might deliver a level of residual income is “no work”?
Really?
As for UK, you clearly didn’t bother following it. The case against N21 was dropped, and if you read the BERR case, and know the peoples whose names are mentioned, you’ll see why. The examples given of people making money? All were network 21. The examples of deception given? None were network 21.
But hey, since when did you let a little thing like facts get in the way of making a claim.
The case against N21 wasn’t dropped, it was inserted into the Amway case, which resulted in a requirement that ZERO profit be made by tools. Also, the ONLY known person who had to withdraw a written communication regarding the UK lawsuit was Jim Dornan, who is now dying of cancer. N21 pricing is similar to the other groups, and therefore the N21 Amway Tool Scam is similar as well. Less than 1% of the UK people were making a net profit. I doubt all of them were N21. List all the N21 people in the UK lawsuit making a net profit. You’re a proven liar, just give up your desperate attempts to continue to lie to others. But hey, since when did you let a little thing like facts get in the way of making a claim. See http://www.webraw.com/quixtar/archives/2007/05/amway_not_impressed_with_n21.php#comments comments for a copy of the letter and http://www.jimdornansjourney.com/2011/07/half-time-report/ for an update on Dornan’s condition. Perhaps he will gag on his own vomit during treatment and put himself out of his own misery. One can only hope.
The amway opportunity is a scam because as its basis they encourage distributors to sell to each other, where everybody is trying to profit off of everybody else. Mathematically this is impossible, as pure logic dictates that in order for a few people to make money in a closed buying network (i.e. “the pyramid”) more people would have to be losing money on not only buying overpriced products, but by purchasing the support materials/meetings as well. It’s failure by design is so obvious to anybody who has any type of business acumen. I wish I had done my homework on this “business” and used good old fashioned common sense before I finally woke up to this realization after being brainwashed for many years about what a financially lucrative opportunity it never was; that in order for a business to be successful, at least a majority of its revenue has to come from sources outside (meaning “retail consumers” who aren’t looking to profit from the business that they’re purchasing from) of the small group of income generators or profit makers of that business.
On a final side not to my fellow posters, please do not be critical of “Shekhar” – the poster from above. This individual has been brainwashed by both his upline and “the system” – as Amway being God’s gift to humanity – for him to make any sense of what he’s stating. I know, because I used to be just like him, and would always defend Amway to the death (metaphorically speaking) before I finally woke up to reality.
To ibofightback:
Your being critical of Joecool is way off base and reeks of somebody who is jealous of all the valuable information he has provided to the direct sales income opportunity market in trying to prevent people from falling for a scam like Amway. I’ve been associated with Joe for many years – going back to our days together as posters for the quixtar blog (hosted by Eric Janssen) – and can vouch for this man’s honesty, solid reputability and on target analytical capabilities thru investing his time and effort to a cause – all free of charge – just because he doesn’t want to see others being unfairly taken in by a multi-billion dollar scam like Amway.
IBO, the only thing you need to “fight back” against is your own gullibility and stupidity, not to mention your very arrogant attitude exhibited on this board.
Mike wrote: “The amway opportunity is a scam because… in order for a few people to make money in a closed buying network (i.e. “the pyramid”) more people would have to be losing money on not only buying overpriced products, but by purchasing the support materials/meetings as well. It’s failure by design is so obvious to anybody who has any type of business acumen.”
Great comment, Mike. If someone is thinking about signing up with one of these parasites, reread that statement a dozen times until it sinks in.
ibofb is making it his life’s work to defend an organization founded on parasitism. They teach and encourage you to attach to other people’s hope’s, dreams, energy, ambitions and bank accounts and suck it like a bloodthirsty tic.
If Amway produces an ointment or spray that repels Amway IBOs, sign me up for a case!
Mike/Anon,
While I agree many Amway products are overpriced (and this is not a straightforward issue, as some people value the quality, others don’t), there are also many that are competitively priced. Considering ONLY the competitively priced products, I see no issue with Amway, even if there are no customer (non-IBO) sales, as the people purchasing products are no worse off financially than they otherwise would be.
However, when it comes to the Amway Tool Scam (ATS), this is an entirely different issue, as:
1. The upline, along with the full cooperation from Amway, LIE about the fact most of the uplines’ profit comes from the tools,
2. Amway cooperates in order to keep the upline in Amway, and not leave to another MLM, many of which do not allow tool profit, as well as Amway can keep more of the Amway product profit for themselves, because the upline is gorging themselves on the tool profit, and
2. the other 99% of IBOs operate at a net loss because of the ATS and lesser Amway profit.
The above is why the ATS is MUCH more significant than any other issue regarding the Amway “business.” By the way, I think I scared ibofb off again. You’re welcome. LOL
Oops! The second “2″ above should be “3.”
Tex:
Okay, on behalf of Anon and myself, I’ll give you your well deserved belated “Thank You” with this posting
Come to think of it, I think ibofb and shekhar from above are one and the same poster – both their writing styles seem to be very similar. This individual also goes by the handle “insider” when he used to post on the old Quixtar blog, and it’s a name that he also uses on you-tube to post his silly amquix promotional bullshit videos.
mike,
Thanks. I don’t think shekhar and ibofb are the same person, but that’s just another meaningless detail, like treating a hangnail on a person with a compound fracture. ibofb has used at least 4-5 different names over the years.
P.S., be sure to check out my latest take on Jimbo Dornan and Amway, it’s one of my best posts, if I do say myself….which I just did! LOL
I just joined Amway and honestly Im also going to school for my Masters in CJ so honestly im doing this because i believe it works and nobody can rip dreams away but honestly if Amway does not work i always have something to fall back on but for now I am going to be an IBO!!
Of course Amway works, but it generally works for established diamonds and not for newcomers.
Study the compensation plan. If 100 PV generates about $90 in bonus, why does the guy who did the work, get the smallest bonus ($10). What’s fair about that?
And the biggest trap is the seminars and tools. That normally accounts for upline profits and dowline losses.
HAHAHAHAAHAHAHA LMFAO (not the gay rap band)
not a victim has the best responses ever. i was laughing for 15 straight minutes!!!
anyways amway is an opportunity to make money, but it is quite hard to make money and in the process will most likely lose 300 plus on money. i’ve known 4 people all smart with lots of friends who were dedicated and belived that they were going to retire in 2-3 only to be screwed over and waste valuable time and effort. 3 years ago when they were telling me to join i can assure you i’m glad i didn’t.
To the Kingpin Androids:
Question for you scam artists: If your business is as great as you say it is, and “the facts speak for themselves”, then why do you and your ambot followers have to constantly resort to google and you-tube bombing in order to blare out your message? Are you so afraid that what the critics are pointing out as being valid and self-evident as to what a crock of shit your “business” stands out as is so obvious and true that you have to try to drown them out by overusing phrases such as “scam”,. “pyramid”, “fraud”, “hoax” etc. in your online correspondence in order to overtake them with your ridiculous turnabout tagging scheme? You’re fooling nobody by perpetuating this nonsense. All you’re doing is showing how your solicitations for new recruits really can’t stand on their own merits. The joke’s on you!
Here is my experience with amway. I got involved with it because of a very close friend of mine. I went to several of the meetings, watched people draw circles, and was promised that I could make a truckload of money. (Their words, not mine).
I went to two “seminars”. The first time, just before the seminar started, I went to find a restroom. A man standing in front of the restroom door asked me in a loud and unfriendly voice what I was doing there. I told him I needed to used the restroom. He answered, again loudly, for me to hurry it up.
The seminar felt like a revival meeting gone bad. They played uplifting (cheesy) songs and did a lot of whooping and hollering. The same dumbass who yelled at me before the meeting told everyone in the audience that he loved everyone there. To top it all off, the ONLY refreshments at the end of the seminar was water. Nothing else. Nothing else from the nouveau riche and big spenders.
The other time was at a community center. The speaker was extremely boring. And yet, the promoters made this seminar sound like I was going to have an audience with the Pope. The wife of the boring speaker also got up and said, and I quote: “I don’t know how many of you are Christians, but I really prayed a lot about this.” Here I was, the only Jew in the audience and she made it seem that only her lot had the monopoly on prayer.
As I have low blood sugar, I went to find a drink. I found a soda machine, but it was blocked by a woman who told me that the machine would make too much noise and interrupt the meeting. I told her that I pitied the poor schmuck who would deny me a drink, and I put my money in the machine anyway. I immediately left.
My friend would often give me lists of books and let me borrow tapes. The books were pedestrian at best and the tapes – at $5.00 each – were of the poorest quality. I listened to an voice mail from “Dexter Yeager” the former beer truck driver who made it big as an “amway distributor”. I may as well have listened to Tony Soprano.
So, what is MY dream? I will be no one’s foot soldier ever again.
aright so…. obviously i did not read everything from above but i red most of it thought….the reason i am her cause yesterday for the first time i went to this seminar thingy about Amway….being a smart human i dint believe most of it and i turn to the men best friend and worse enemy….the “INTERNET”…..i just want this question to be answered…..
50 old Shekhar u should be 53 now….how is that income coming…??..O.O
ibofightback how is that income coming…??..O.O…i will like to know…
u guys should be making some serous money by now..O.O..
“50 old Shekhar u should be 53 now….how is that income coming…??..O.O
ibofightback how is that income coming…??..O.O…i will like to know…”
LOL, now now, their income has nothing to do with your individual effort and results. LOL
P.S. Amway is a scam.
I was approached by a person who has a girlfriend who graduated from the college I went to. He also told me he knew an emerald distributor and had me speak to him via phone. They showed me a video about Amway and gave me some free samples. So they told me I had to invest $200 for the company to get started. So I kinda lied and said I was interested and they told me I should go to a conference that is a few towns from where I live. So I said I would and then when I saw this video I knew right away that it would be a scam by this video. So I blocked the guys number and anyone else who is involved with him and never looked back. Here is the link to the video if you guys need some evidence: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-215989802739458876#
Kochi, Aug. 6:
The police on Friday carried out searches at nine Amway centres in three districts in Kerala as part of the ongoing drive against money chain activities and cheating through multi-level marketing campaigns.
The team under Mr J. Jayanath, Superintendent of Police, Wayanad, searched the head office of the Amway at Kochi and also its office at Kottayam. The raids were also conducted in Thiruvananthapuram, Kollam, Thrissur, Kozhikode and Palakkad.
The police said that cases had been registered against the company at Kannur, Wayanad, and Thrissur following complaints of cheating.
Meanwhile, Amway in a statement said the police action has come as ‘rude shock’ and surprise. A fair investigation demands that the company be notified about the nature of complaint received for such a sweeping inquiry, it said.
The multi-level marketing and direct selling company stated that it had been receiving complaints from distributors over the past one month that they were being called to police stations and being ‘harassed’ to give complaints against the company. This is another step in the direction of ‘high handedness’ of some police officials, the statement said.
Wow, a 7 year old Dateline NBC video and 2 month old India news. What a lame blog!
“Wow, a 7 year old Dateline NBC video and 2 month old India news. What a lame blog!”
If it’s such a lame blog, one wonders: why does Tex spend so much time here trolling for traffic? Perhaps its because NO ONE reads his boring, self-absorbed POS blog. The guy is so clueless that he actually posted his pathetic traffic counts. He typically gets fewer than 125 visitors a day.
Of the fewer than 125 visitors, it’s unlikely more than a handful are there to read about Amway and virtually none to read his opinions. Tex brags that his strategy for getting traffic is posting the obituaries of deceased Amway execs and IBOs. So most of his meager traffic comes from grieving family members and friends looking for funeral times. Kind of macabre and desperate, don’t you think?
Tex has delusions of grandeur and self-importance. What’s sad is that he probably has some good information and points to make, but he’s so arrogant and abrasive, even to those who agree with him, it’s not worth the effort. If you’ve been to his blog, you know what I mean. If you haven’t, don’t bother. It’s trashed up with year-old obits and ads to sell his car and computer. I guess annoying people for a living doesn’t pay all that well.
I scrolled back a few dozen of his blog posts there wasn’t a single comment left on any one of his posts. Not ONE. Even the spammers don’t go there!
That he would come and criticize a thread with 300 comments hoping that someone will accidentally click on his name kind of says it all, doesn’t it?
What do they say in Texas? Big hat, no readers?
I spend very little time here – it’s too lame! LOL
Just because I would make you look stupid for posting stupid comments doesn’t mean the blog is the problem, it means YOU are stupid! LOL
Why shouldn’t I be proud of an average of more than 125 visits per day? It’s more than most blogs. LOL
Posting about croaked LCKs is only one very small part of my strategery for gaining traffic. So no, I don’t think you think. What an idiot! LOL
If all you can see are “year-old obits and ads to sell his car and computer (which aren’t even mine!) then you have confirmed your idiocy. LOL
The threads more than 2 weeks old don’t allow posts to be made, there was too much spamming. If someone makes a post, it will eventually get posted and responded to, even yours! LOL
You haven’t made a single point, but what should we expect from a complete and total IDIOT!!! LOL
P.S., click on my name for a REAL blog about Amway. LOL
Tex:
Did you literally Laugh Out Loud (LOL) 7 times in the course of writing that single comment? If so, it may be time for an adjustment of your medication.
Tex writes: “Why shouldn’t I be proud of an average of more than 125 visits per day? It’s more than most blogs.” Actually, it’s not. My 9 year old son put up a Blogger blog about his turtle and he has twice as much traffic as you. And he doesn’t have to resort to writing pet obituaries to get some accidental traffic.
Tex writes: “Posting about croaked LCKs is only one very small part of my strategery for gaining traffic.” Those must be some powerhouse strategies to attract 125 people per day. Perhaps you should write a book: “SEO Secrets to Attracting 1/2 as Much Blog Traffic as a Turtle!”
Tex writes: “If someone makes a post [he means 'comment'], it will eventually get posted and responded to, even yours!” Glad you have a plan in place in the unlikely event anyone ever posts a comment to your blog. Perhaps the widow of a Nigerian dictator will stumble by and leave the first. Some day.
Tex writes: “P.S., click on my name for a REAL blog about Amway. LOL” I did. Hmmm… is that your way of apologizing for insulting the blog you troll?
To all: I apologize for feeding this troll. I think I’d rather go to an Ambot rally than read a single post of his inane blog. Obviously, all of America agrees. I think he visits it himself 125 times per day.
It was probably more than just 7 times, I always laugh at IDIOTS! LOL
No medication necessary, laughter is the BEST medicine! LOL
Just because you can point out one single blog that has more traffic doesn’t mean it has MEANINGFUL traffic/content. What is the link for your son’s blog? I get some pretty pissed off comments on the LCK deaths, and one of them was even included in Amway’s lawsuit. LOL
Perhaps you should write a book: “Idiot Secrets to Having 1/2 as Much Intelligence Than Most People!” LOL
Who cares how many idiots like you are too afraid to post on my blog, because if you write something STUPID you’ll be called out on it? LOL
No, it’s my way of attracting attention to my blog when this blog owner removes the link in the comment section. IDIOT! LOL
It would be very difficult to visit myself 125 times/day from all over the world.
By the way, the topic of this thread is whether Amway is a scam. The answer is YES. Click on my name to find out why! LOL
Tex writes: “I get some pretty pissed off comments on the LCK deaths, and one of them was even included in Amway’s lawsuit. LOL”
Tex is like those miserable Westboro Baptist Church people who protest at soldier’s funerals. He’s like those dysfunctional children who act out just to get attention. They are so narcissistic and needy they don’t care if the attention is negative, or if it hurts innocent people, so long as they get the attention they crave.
I think Amway/Quixter is like a magnet for the narcissistic & needy, which is a big market. These are people who think they somehow deserve to live like royalty without really ever producing or contributing anything. They just think they should be rich and admired because they deserve it for being so special and unaccomplished.
People like Tex become Amway detractors for the same reason they joined Amway: they crave attention and adoration. Of course, they are losers just like most deluded AmBots. Before anyone considers joining this moronic “movement” notice of much emphasis they put on themselves and each other, their goals, future lifestyle, silly levels, etc. and how little emphasis is on the crap they sell that no one wants.
So, no, Tex, you can’t have the URL to my son’s turtle blog. His readers aren’t interested in you or your sad, sad blog either.
The LCKs are NOTHING like our dead soldiers. Don’t you know that LCK stands for LYING COWARDLY “KINGPIN”? LOL
I’ve never once stated or expected to be paid for something I didn’t deserve. You’re a flaming IDIOT! No wonder you’re too scared to post comments on my blog! LOL
I don’t put the emphasis on me, YOU do!!! LOL I put the emphasis on the Amway Tool Scam, JERK! LOL
I doubt you have a son or a turtle blog. Perhaps YOU are the turtle on the fence post, you sure post like one! LOL
By the way, the topic of this thread is whether Amway is a scam. The answer is YES. Click on my name to find out why! LOL
“Perhaps YOU are the turtle on the fence post, you sure post like one!”
You’ve seen turtles on fence posts that can post blog comments? That’s amazing, Tex! You should post a video of them on your blog. You would get crazy traffic… might even boost you to 200 visitors per day! My son might even link to you.
Perhaps you should ask your fencepost turtle bloggers to post comments to your blog. While you are thoroughly uninteresting to humans, amphibious reptile bloggers might be your niche audience!
I don’t think they can laugh out loud, though, so you may want to lay off the incessant LOLs when communicating with them.
It’s obvious you don’t understand what the term “turtle on a fence post” means, but what should we expect from an obvious stupid idiot? LOL
Tex is an obsessive compulsive moron. His blog sucks and he’s even critisizing deceased people. No class, what an ass.
From Business Line
Kochi, Aug. 6:
The police on Friday carried out searches at nine Amway centres in three districts in Kerala as part of the ongoing drive against money chain activities and cheating through multi-level marketing campaigns.
The team under Mr J. Jayanath, Superintendent of Police, Wayanad, searched the head office of the Amway at Kochi and also its office at Kottayam. The raids were also conducted in Thiruvananthapuram, Kollam, Thrissur, Kozhikode and Palakkad.
The police said that cases had been registered against the company at Kannur, Wayanad, and Thrissur following complaints of cheating.
Meanwhile, Amway in a statement said the police action has come as ‘rude shock’ and surprise. A fair investigation demands that the company be notified about the nature of complaint received for such a sweeping inquiry, it said.
The multi-level marketing and direct selling company stated that it had been receiving complaints from distributors over the past one month that they were being called to police stations and being ‘harassed’ to give complaints against the company. This is another step in the direction of ‘high handedness’ of some police officials, the statement said.
LOL is an obsessive compulsive moron. He sucks, doesn’t even have a blog, and he’s even more stupid than deceased people. No class, what an ass.
sivan,
We know, you posted that 2 month old news a few days ago.
Wow, that was a real good comeback tex. Did you learn that in kindergarten?
You have the mentality of a midget and your blog is in extremely poor taste. I hope Amway wins their lawsuit against you and puts you in the poorhouse.
Ironically, you lost money doing Amway and now your losing money fighting against Amway. Either way your a loser.
I pretty much copied your stupid statement, I thought you were shooting for about 3 years old, actually. LOL
There are plenty of anti-Amway blogs around, why do you think they are only picking on me? It’s because I am hurting their bottom line and know their vulnerabilities. Your definition of poor taste is my blog traffic. You are an idiot if you hope Amway wins, as they are running the scam, not me. I suggest you read the headline at the top of this page, because you are trying to make this discussion about me, but it’s not about me, it’s about the Amway Tool Scam. If you were able to read my blog for comprehension, you would realize I am winning, hands down. It isn’t ironic I lost money doing Amway, most people do. I also am not losing money with Amway, I am burying them, and will continue to do so until they are forced to get rid of the tool scam, no thanks to you or all the other idiots in the blog world. LOL
The real “loser” is your lack of command of the English language. You misused the word “your” twice in the last 2 sentences of your post. The proper word is “you’re” you fucking jackass idiot sorry excuse for a human being wasting perfectly good oxygen jerk. LOL
“Amway’s parent company, Alticor Inc., reported sales exceeding $9.2 billion for the year ended December 31, 2010, a 9.5 percent increase over sales of $8.4 billion in 2009. The 2010 performance results mark Alticor’s 10th sales increase in the last 11 years…. The world’s second-largest direct selling enterprise, Amway works with more than 3 million distributors who sell the company’s branded products…”
Tex writes: “I am hurting their bottom line and know their vulnerabilities.”
Yes, Tex, it sure looks like your crappy free blogger blog has got them on the ropes. LOL
Tex writes: “I am winning, hands down…”
Yes, you’re a regular Charlie Sheen, minus the money, fame, talent, good looks and connections.
Tex writes: “I am burying them, and will continue to do so until they are forced to get rid of the tool scam…”
HaHaHaHa!!! Yes, Tex, you’ve got them on their knees!!! HeeHeeHee!!! I bet they are in the Amway boardroom right now, sweating and pacing up a storm. “Sure we’ve got record profits and we’re up nearly 10%. Sure sales are over $9 billion. But what are we going to do about Tex! He’s got 126 visitors a day! This guy is BURYING us!”
ROFLMAO!
Amway is growing in some markets, but not in others. They wouldn’t sue me unless I was hurting their bottom line. If you bothered reading my blog, you would realize it isn’t my blog that is hurting them. Plus, even if they have growth, they could have had more growth if it wasn’t for me, so they can grow and I can STILL hurt their bottom line. IDIOT.
Again, you haven’t bothered to read my blog. ASSHOLE.
Keep laughing, we’ll see who has the last laugh….
“They wouldn’t sue me unless I was hurting their bottom line.” sez Tex
Just because I pop a zit doesn’t mean it was threatening to me. HaHaHa! Sure you were hurting them Tex! LOL!
“I can STILL hurt their bottom line” sez Tex
9 billion in sales. Up nearly 10%. HaHaHa! Sure you can, Tex! LOL!
“you haven’t bothered to read my blog” sez Tex
HaHaHa! No one has, Tex! LOL
Oh Tex. You are the new Shekhar!
tex, the headline of this post is how Amway makes you annoying, which you are.
Amway picks on you because you cross the line. There is freedom of speech but you have gone over the top with your childish rants. If you had half a brain (which you don’t), you would know that you won’t prevail in the long run against a multi billion dollar company with deep pockets. Rathter than hurting their bottom line, your just making yourself look like an idiot, which is abundantly clear to most who read this blog.
Guest,
Just because I pop a zit doesn’t mean it was threatening to me. HaHaHa! Sure you were hurting them Tex! LOL! —> No, you ARE the zit! LOL
9 billion in sales. Up nearly 10%. HaHaHa! Sure you can, Tex! LOL! —-> What if they would have been up 20% without me? LOL
HaHaHa! No one has, Tex! LOL —-> My traffic stats would say otherwise. LOL
LOL,
tex, the headline of this post is how Amway makes you annoying, which you are. —> WRONG, the headline is IS AMWAY A SCAM? The answer is yes, and the content on my site proves it. LOL
Amway picks on you because you cross the line. —-> I haven’t crossed ANY line, you flaming IDIOT. LOL
There is freedom of speech but you have gone over the top with your childish rants. —> My “childish rants” are permitting by the First Amendment. How can you be so stupid and still type? LOL
If you had half a brain (which you don’t), you would know that you won’t prevail in the long run against a multi billion dollar company with deep pockets. —> If you had a single brain cell (which you don’t), you would know David fought Goliath and WON. You’re just too much of a pussy to exercise your right of free speech and stop a multi-decade, multi-million victim, multi-tens of billion dollar SCAM. LOL
Rathter than hurting their bottom line, your just making yourself look like an idiot, which is abundantly clear to most who read this blog. —> I’ll bet the “most” that read this blog are both clueless like the 2 of you are, and very few. LOL
David fought Goliath and won. But tex is fighting Amway and will lose, because tex is a LOSER. And if I might add, a stupid loser who was stupid enough to spend so much money on useless Amway tools. Man, I hope you don’t have kids. Your blog is full of idiocy and hatred. It doesn’t accomplish anything except making yourself look stupid. I hope Amway prevails and leaves you broke and homeless. LOL
P.S. Tex is a moron
LOL,
Only an idiot would consider someone who is standing up to a scam a loser. There are literally MILLIONS of others who were lied to and overspent on tools, you fucking MORON! I do have kids, and YOU are full of idiocy and hatred. The blog has accomplished enough for Amway to make a stink about it, which makes YOU look stupid, as if you needed any help. Anyone who wants a scamming company to win over someone who is shining the bright light of truth on it is morally broke and brainless. LOL
“Only an idiot would consider someone who is standing up to a scam a loser”
That’s not why you’re a loser, Tex. You are a loser because you insult and bully everyone on both sides. I’ve seen it on other sites from 3 years ago. Someone agrees with you and you call them stupid, shallow or try to belittle them in some other way.
It’s obvious you have no empathy or concern for victims of the tool scam. You spew hatred toward anyone and everyone. This is all about a sad little man trying to be noticed, to be someone, desperate for negative attention, venting his unhappiness. You delude yourself into thinking you are David battling Goliath. You are simply a pesky gnat, a loser.
“The blog has accomplished enough for Amway to make a stink about it”
We agree on one thing: your blog stinks. I just clicked on your name and realized this site doesn’t even link to you pathetic blog like it used to. So now you won’t even get your 125 visitors, just a few accidental obituary readers.
You actually are a distraction from those who do want to warn people about the futility and danger of getting involved with Amway. You are denser than Shekhar and even more annoying than ibofightback. You are nothing like that bloated drug addict Rush you idolize. Even that fat, disgusting loudmouth knows how to build an audience and not attack those who agree with him. Sorry, you are no Rush. Just a blowhard with no following, no audience, no allies. That’s losing.
You’re a liar. I don’t call people who agree with me stupid, shallow or try to belittle them in any other way. Find a SINGLE example of that, LIAR.
I am ALL about concern for victims of the tool scam, you don’t have the slightest clue of a clue. YOU are a sadly mistaken little boy/girl if that is what you think. LOL
This site no longer links to my blog because this blog owner recently changed it. If you want to identify someone who has no empathy or concern for victims of the tool scam, it is him, not me!
I don’t need a certain number of visitors to my blog to be effective, my lawsuit with Amway proves that.
YOU are the one who is the distraction, by bringing up all the minor issues with Amway rather than focusing on the major one. This thread is a good example of that, there are a number of various minor issues that someone not only wouldn’t consider a big deal, but may not want to search through all the bullshit before they find the REAL problem, the Amway Tool Scam, posted by me. You are denser than a rock and even more annoying than fingernails on a chalkboard. Rush is a national treasure, and you’re an idiot. You’re so stupid, you couldn’t tell whether something was similar to dirt, water or air! I don’t need a “following,” all I need is the truth, which I have, in spades. That’s winning. And you’re STUPID.
To all those who are here trying to learn about Amway, whether it’s a scam, whether you should get involved, etc.: I apologize for feeding the troll called Tex. He derails Amway conversations around the Internet with his self-absorbed Rush Limbaugh-wannabe insults and pathetic attempts to get traffic to his hideous and incoherent blog.
Here’s my take on what he’s ranting about in a nutshell: Amway is a brilliant, worldwide machine that attracts desperate and/or greedy dreamers and sucks them into their rah-rah fantasy of being able to become a millionaire on a beach somewhere, effortlessly receiving checks from the work of a “downline” group of desperate and/or greedy dreamers below them in the pyramid.
The greedy schemers higher up rake in BIG moolah selling all these desperate, greedy dreamers all kinds of crap. In addition to their products and service offerings, they make them buy tickets to rah-rah seminars, books, tapes, CDs, and DVDs (The “Tools” he talks about) to stimulate the delusional lobe of their squirming brains and get themselves further self-hypnotized.
From what I’ve been able to make out from Tex’s garbage pile of rants, he was one of the deluded, greedy wannabes for a bunch of years and paid big bucks for all the crap they were selling. For a long time, he was an online Amway advocate and all the time trying to get the Big Boy scammers to pay attention to him and listen to his ideas. They blew him off for obvious reasons and his feelings got hurt and he went over to the anti-Amway side and started annoying people on both sides. Just my opinion based on reading what I could bear to read without getting nauseous. I think that’s the gist of this squirmy bug on Amway’s windshield.
Feel free to just skip over his comments and I’ll try to stop feeding him.
So if you’re thinking about getting involved with Amway, keep in mind that almost everyone involved – advocates and detractors – are really annoying and needy egotists. If you are a really annoying, greedy egotist you still shouldn’t join because once you tell anyone you are associated with Amway, your secret will be out for good!
If you want to make money selling worthless crap, get a job at WalMart where you’re guaranteed a paycheck
You couldn’t be more wrong about me, but I’ve “advertised” your blog on my blog! LOL
My marriage has ended. I have no more savings. My rooms are full of products I cannot use. I am in financial ruin and I have no money to retire with.
Amway has ruined me. I should have listened. I was so sure this would work out.
NOTE: That this comment was posted by the same pro-Amway “Shekhar” who regularly posted earlier has not been confirmed. The comment author should contact UnhappyFranchisee[at]gmail to confirm identity.
* * * * *
IS AMWAY A SCAM?
Let’s get refocused on the original topic, shall we?
I can tell you that this blog post gets a very strong flow of traffic. Many of the visitors coming here are good people who want to improve their lives and provide for their families. They are trying to figure out whether devoting their time, money and energy into Amway will help them achieve their goals, or whether it will waste their time & their savings & alienate their friends and family.
Please help answer these reader’s questions, such as:
Is Amway a legitimate opportunity?
How does it really work? Is there profit potential in selling products or is it dependent on signing up new members and selling them stuff (products and “tools”)?
What percentage of IBOs really make money, and what characteristics do they share?
What questions should a prospective IBO ask or what should they research to get the truth?
Let’s get the conversation back on track and end the ad hominem attacks and personal sniping, as entertaining as they can be.
Thanks! ADMIN
* * * * *
This blog owner and I have reached an agreement that I will be Mr. Nice Guy PROVIDED he takes down personal attacks against me.
Is Amway a legitimate opportunity? —> As it stands now in the U.S., absolutely NOT. There is FAR too much money being made on the tools, I call it the ATS (Amway Tool Scam), which results in the downline operating at a net loss until they reach about the Platinum level, which means about 100 people in your group, most of whom, by definition, operate at a net loss while the upline lies through their teeth about where their lifestyle comes from. There is no way Amway can be considered a legitimate opportunity when it is embedded with this lie.
How does it really work? —> By lying, see above.
Is there profit potential in selling products or is it dependent on signing up new members and selling them stuff (products and “tools”)? —> There is profit potential in selling products, but there is no problem with “signing up new member and selling them stuff (although technically, they buy from Amway directly, not through you, their upline). The tools part is addressed above.
What percentage of IBOs really make money, and what characteristics do they share? —> You mean now, or after the ATS is fixed?
What questions should a prospective IBO ask or what should they research to get the truth? —> How much do the Emeralds and above make on tools, and can I attend local major functions rather than fly/drive across the country to get to them? Also, can you provide me Tex’s conference call phone number, so I can provide some additional information to him and he can tell me whether you’re trying to scam me?
So who said tex was in charge of battling the tool scam?
LOL:
No one said anyone is in charge of anything other than that I am in charge of this discussion thread… the point of which is to get useful information out to prospective IBOs as to the reality of investing time and money into Amway.
If you have information, opinions or advice to share, please add it. My goal is to get this thread back to providing some useful substance, and away from cross-bickering with each other. If people are truly interested in battling the “tool scam” they’ll help keep the conversation focused on it, what it is, examples of how it works, etc..
No more ad hominem attacks. Attacking the argument is fine; attacking the arguer is not.
Okay. Amway is not a legitimate opportunity. In my opinion, the Amway opportunity is just a front being used to coverup an otherwise illegal scam.
I think those functions and other “training” sold by the diamonds is a scam, but they use Amway’s products to get around the letter of the law to make it appear legal. Without Amway, the diamonds would simply walk away with their groups and join some other MLM scam. Take a look at Orriin Woodward etal – moed their Amway groups to Mona Vie.
On the flip side, Amway IBO’s mostly lose money. The payment plan sucks and when you factor in business expenses and training, IBO’s are losing their shirts and only a select few enjoy the benefits of the Amway opportunity.
Okay. Amway is not a legitimate opportunity. In my opinion, the Amway opportunity is just a front being used to coverup an otherwise illegal scam. —> The FTC would say otherwise, if your point is that all MLM is an illegal scam. Now, if you’re saying Amway is being used as a front to cover up the Amway Tool Scam (ATS), I agree. Keep in mind the FTC has NOT looked at the ATS.
I think those functions and other “training” sold by the diamonds is a scam, but they use Amway’s products to get around the letter of the law to make it appear legal. Without Amway, the diamonds would simply walk away with their groups and join some other MLM scam. Take a look at Orriin Woodward etal – moed their Amway groups to Mona Vie. —> I think “those functions and other “training” sold by the diamonds” is a scam as well. I also agree many of the diamonds would walk away and join another MLM that allowed them to keep their tool scams going. And I say good riddance, and allow the IBOs left to rebuild the Amway business the way it was done for the first several years in the U.S. and is currently required to be built in other countries, such as the UK and India.
On the flip side, Amway IBO’s mostly lose money. The payment plan sucks and when you factor in business expenses and training, IBO’s are losing their shirts and only a select few enjoy the benefits of the Amway opportunity. —> How much money do YOU think a 100 PV IBO should be paid? Remember, the more you pay them, the less that is left for those responsible for large groups, and there a LOT more 100 PV people than other levels. Reducing expenses would prevent IBOs from losing their shirts, unless they do other stupid things, which you KNOW some people will do.
How much should a 100 PV IBO get paid? That IBO should get the lion’s share of the business generated by his or her efforts. Instead, uplines end up getting most of the bonus with the IBO who did the work getting a pittance. What makes all of this even worse is that these lower level IBOs get scammed into buying tools. And what’s more, the tools do not help the IBO to earn more money. All it does is drain what little profit the IBO may have made. Thus upline is double dipping in ripping off their downline.
If the IBO gets the lion’s share of the profit, there is little to no incentive to build a large business, because there is little to no money to pay upline. Keep in mind there are usually several people below the Platinum level who split majority of the profit. What you are proposing is known as socialism, the current payout is called capitalism. Which system do you prefer? Also, the current payout is what is shown when a prospect sees the marketing plan from an IBO, so why would someone join if they don’t like this payout plan?
Remove the tool scam (not the tools, the tool scam, in other words, lower the tool prices drastically and share meetings/functions with multiple LOS/LOA groups) and the IBOs won’t be getting scammed. I don’t agree the tools don’t help IBOs earn money, because the upline earned money because of AND in spite of the tool scam.
There is no double dip, only the tool scam single dip. If you don’t like the Amway payout plan, don’t join.
Here’s something else to consider: The idea of any business is to grow, and if paying most of the money to the lowest level IBO is such a good idea for growth, why hasn’t any other MLM done it? Surely you’re not the first with the idea.
It seems to me that what other MLMs do is not a good gauge because most are set up to enrich the few at the expense of the many who are going to come, deposit their money, and then leave eventually with nothing anyway. If an MLM were really interested retaining their IBOs long term, they would allow them to get some real return on their investment of time and money so they could afford to stay and build a legit business, wouldn’t they?
Re income percentages and who gets to keep what out of the recommended sale price of a product to a consumer, some facts. Roughly -
Newest IBO: 30% to 50%
Upline IBO up to Platinum: 0% to 20%
Upline above Platinum: 0% to 3%
Re ibofightback: income percentages
[citation needed]
LOL even if the percentages were real, clear to enlighten us on the actual total sales and net profit for the “average” IBO’s products sold?
Tex, it’s not capitalism. It’s a scam when someone does the work and the uplines get most of the money. Someone can still build a big group where they get a small cut of the downline sales plus the bonuses for the pin levels. If someone is good at selling products and services, why even bother to join MLM? Just sell the prioducts and get 100% of the earnings. The reason why people join MLM’s like Amway is because of the mostly false promise building the business and in the future, being able to walk away from the business while the money continues. The problem is compounded when the uplines who get most of the bonus, also get to sell their downline function tickets and other materials that is more fluff than substance.
Mi nombre es – the citation is the Amway compensation plan. The basics of it (up platinum) are shown to everyone when they’re introduced to the business. The rest you can find in the Amway business reference guide (google it)
Regarding your other question, “average” is meaningless statistic for that type of information, something I discuss here.
Guest,
I would think the main objective of any business, MLM or otherwise, is to maximize the volume of products/services they offer, in order to maximize their profit. The payout plan is designed to maximize this volume over the short and long term.
ibofb,
This assume Amway products are retailable (sales to non-IBOs) at full retail price. This is NOT a very good assumption.
Mi nombre es,
Good point. According to the investigations by the Wisconsin Attorney Generals office, the UK regulators, and numerous online accounts on various blogs, far less than 1% of IBOs make a net profit operating under an upline Amway Tool Scam.
LOL,
The top people at most companies make far more than most employees. This is how capitalism works. The below discussion assumes the Amway Tool Scam (ATS) is not being considered, as this would skew the issues completely. Please do not throw the ATS wild card around to make your point, it completely disrupts a logical discussion of the facts. The individual 100 PV person does NOT do the work, they do SOME of the work. It is the work of numerous downline IBOs AND upline IBOs that are leveraged by the upline who take their time, money, and effort to train and motivate the downline. The 100 PV person can do the same thing OVER TIME and reap the same or better benefits their upline did, which ALSO occurred over time. The beauty of MLM is you LEVERAGE your time and effort through others, that’s what makes MLM superior to a pure salesperson, as most of us are not interested in being superior salespersons. THAT’S why it makes sense for most people to join an MLM rather than just selling. Also, you could get sick and your business would not go to zero during that time period if you were in MLM. The reason people can’t have the “walk away income” talked about is because the ATS financially crushes people so fast the upline MUST stay active to get enough in the front door to make up for those leaving the back door.
However, ALL of the above discussion items have been responded to personally by me on numerous occasions in the past. The bottom line is I am right with my facts and the rest of you are in error in one form or another. If you think otherwise, show me where my facts and logic are in error. The issue then becomes why do we keep rehashing these issues over and over again, rather than working together to shut down the ATS?
ibofb,
You are ignoring the net profit portion of the question, as usual.
As usual, the rest of them can’t/won’t discuss the facts. The only thing they can do is ignore the facts and launch personal attacks. That’s why we don’t have any posts the past few days, even though several questions are on the table. No wonder the Amway Tool Scam is still ripping off people, nobody else has the spine or guts to stand up to it. How very sad….
I have a question. The “Amway tool scam” is a bunch of guys selling get rich quick DVDs and seminars to gullible wannabe millionaires right?
It’s sleazy but is it illegal? Calling it a scam implies illegal. How is this any different than the gazillions of motivational speakers?
I have a question. The “Amway tool scam” is a bunch of guys selling get rich quick DVDs and seminars to gullible wannabe millionaires right? —> No, it’s a relatively few number of guys AND gals LYING to their downline about the Amway business model. They claim their houses, boats, planes, cars, motorhomes, jewelry, exotic trips, etc., come from Amway, whereas most of it comes from the Amway Tool Scam (ATS) profits. The DVDs and seminars do not claim to be get rich quick. I wouldn’t use the word “gullible” when it is the upline who are LYING to them. Also, with the internet now containing a LOT of information regarding the ATS, it is much easier to figure out the truth than it used to be. Nor would I use the pejorative term wannabe millionaires, because MOST people WANT to be millionaires, unless they are billionaires. Don’t YOU?
It’s sleazy but is it illegal? —> Under the RICO and FTC section 5 rules, it probably is illegal to lie about a business model. However, the FTC first has to be interested in prosecuting this activity. Would you like to assist with this effort?
Calling it a scam implies illegal. How is this any different than the gazillions of motivational speakers? —> The “gazillions” of motivational speakers don’t show up to any event, Amway or any other venue, as promoting one business while taking money from the same people and making most of their money from another business. THAT is how this is different. VERY different. So different, the UK has outlawed ANY profit from being made from the tools, and India requires the maximum tool prices to be included in the Amway rules, with the prices being about 1/5 of what is charged in the USA. However, other motivational speakers are still allowed to operate in these countries.
Any other questions?
There is all this talk of brainwashing, scamming, avoiding, and such. All I see is this or that and 2 sides of the bigger issue. What is the issue? Money.
The economy is in the crapper and people are bickering about how they can’t make ends meet.
Amway can be used as a credible source of income that isn’t a job at all. What a concept. You can go to school, work full time, and live life the way you always have or you can take a few hours not more than 10hrs a week and game plan with a group of individuals just like yourself to make some money and try to bring other like minded indivduals into the mix.
You have no one but yourself telling you how much money you want to make. You have a team of people who are there to help you make your money. What do they get in return? They increase their credibility with their consumers and new people who are interested in having a source of income that isn’t a 9-5 job.
The Amway distributor brings the customers to the companies. To be honest its really not that much different than answering surveys online and getting paid to do that.
What does Amway do? Sell top tier products that are environmentally friendly, 100% natural and competively priced against the highest out there sold by other companies.
There are a few companies such as Artestry (which is the promoter of the Miss American pagent) Nutrilite, and Legacy of Clean that are exclusively sold by Amway Distributors.
What do you have to lose by listening to these people? Nothing
You can gain a extra income that you wouldn’t normally have.
Is legitimate extra cash such a bad thing?
Does fear of something that you don’t understand ever help you gain knowledge about that which you don’t know?
Hell why not go to an info session and voice your concerns there?
No such thing as brainwashing. Humans always have the choice to be persuaded, manipulated, or to learn for themselves. Its all a matter of perspective and yours Not a Victum comes from sheer ignorance.
A friend of a friend isn’t always the best advisor especially if friend of a friend isn’t successful.
moral of story: Don’t rely on others to tell you whats what, learn for yourself by attending and deciding for yourself.
Wishfulthinker, your name is very appropriate.
There is all this talk of brainwashing, scamming, avoiding, and such. —> I don’t subscribe to the brainwashing camp, but there is no denying Amway scams their IBOs.
All I see is this or that and 2 sides of the bigger issue. —> Then you need to pay attention to the facts.
What is the issue? Money. —> Agreed, but not in the manner YOU are saying.
The economy is in the crapper and people are bickering about how they can’t make ends meet. —> True, but the Amway Tool Scam exists in good and bad economies.
Amway can be used as a credible source of income that isn’t a job at all. —> No, it can’t. It is a scam.
What a concept. —> Yes, the concept is called the Amway Tool Scam. Feel free to click on my name to educate yourself.
You can go to school, work full time, and live life the way you always have or you can take a few hours not more than 10hrs a week and game plan with a group of individuals just like yourself to make some money and try to bring other like minded indivduals into the mix. —> It would be nice if that is how it works, but that is not reality.
You have no one but yourself telling you how much money you want to make. —> No, you have your upline LYING to you about the business model.
You have a team of people who are there to help you make your money. —> But you have to operate at a net loss until you reach Platinum, then all of those in your group will do the same until THEY reach Platinum, at which time there will be dozens more under them operating at a net loss, etc.
What do they get in return? —> An empty bank account.
They increase their credibility with their consumers and new people who are interested in having a source of income that isn’t a 9-5 job. —> You missed the part about operating at a net loss.
The Amway distributor brings the customers to the companies. —> And the upline rips off the Amway distributor It’s now called IBO, by the way, as IBOs no longer distribute as they used to do.
To be honest its really not that much different than answering surveys online and getting paid to do that. —> WRONG. It is VERY different than that. Trust me.
What does Amway do? —> Sell products at inflated prices and deflated bonuses while the upline gorges themselves on the Amway Tool Scam profits.
Sell top tier products that are environmentally friendly, 100% natural and competively priced against the highest out there sold by other companies. —> Some are, some aren’t. Let’s get real, not get carried away.
There are a few companies such as Artestry (which is the promoter of the Miss American pagent) Nutrilite, and Legacy of Clean that are exclusively sold by Amway Distributors. —> It’s Artistry. These aren’t companies, these are product lines.
What do you have to lose by listening to these people? Nothing —> Millions of people have lost 10s of billions of dollars. Do you consider that nothing?
You can gain a extra income that you wouldn’t normally have. —> Most lose money they can’t afford to lose.
Is legitimate extra cash such a bad thing? —> Not if it’s legitimate. Amway isn’t.
Does fear of something that you don’t understand ever help you gain knowledge about that which you don’t know? —> Now we’re getting into tapespeak.
Hell why not go to an info session and voice your concerns there? —> Because you will get ripped off.
No such thing as brainwashing. —> But there is such thing as lying.
Humans always have the choice to be persuaded, manipulated, or to learn for themselves. —> And RICO laws were designed to minimize these issues.
Its all a matter of perspective and yours Not a Victum comes from sheer ignorance. —> No, it’s a matter of telling the truth.
A friend of a friend isn’t always the best advisor especially if friend of a friend isn’t successful. —> And a liar isn’t the best advisor, either.
moral of story: Don’t rely on others to tell you whats what, learn for yourself by attending and deciding for yourself. —> First “attend” my blog and get the facts, then you won’t waste your time or money with the Amway Tool Scam.
I was in Amway over 30 years ago for a period of several years, and I have spoken to many people in the business during that time and in the years after. I have relatives in the business in the years subsequent to my own time in the business. I’ll give my opinion, for what it’s worth, in the hopes that someone will find it useful. I’ll add that I started my own small business over 20 years ago which has been successful in providing for my family.
You can make money in the Amway business. But the chances of making the kind of money that will afford you luxury homes, cars and vacations are infinitesimally small. I met many hundreds of people in the business and have personally known just 2 couples who were able to earn enough income to remain in the business full-time for an extended period. One has long since retired (and ceased to be in the business) another is just getting by after having their home foreclosed a number of years ago. The one who retired, for a time, was supplementing their income by reproducing and selling motivational tapes when tools starting becoming the “thing”. While I had periods of small success, after all was said and done I made no money. The 2 things destroyed my motivation were, one, the realization that a lot of money was being made off the “tools” without even realizing the degree to which it taken over the whole business. The second thing was the amount of religion that was being injected into motivational seminars, etc. While there were times that it looked like the company might intervene and address some of these problems, they ultimately seemed to turn a blind eye.
Fast forward to the mid-90s. My sister-in-laws boyfriend, later her husband, got in deep for a period of about 5 years and he squandered many thousands of dollars and spent countless hours in seminars learning to build a business that he was never able to. He was constantly trying to recruit me and he responded with all the canned answers when I debated him on the business. I heard about the “broke losers” and when asked if he was making money he respond he was going to “fake it ‘til I make it”. He looked at me with such pity because I just didn’t get it. When I pointed out that people were making a lot of money off the tapes and books and he was required to buy, he responded “I don’t have to buy anything, BUT, if I want to be successful you need the tools to learn how to get there. “Don’t you want to buy your household products wholesale and cut out the middleman?” Multilevel marketing of any kind has more middlemen, by definition, than any business I can think of.
Furthermore, the company places so many restrictions on how you can promote “your business” and the products that it’s really a stretch to say that is indeed your own business. Although I haven’t used the products in many years I found most of them to be of good to superior quality although very expensive to use, even at “wholesale”. Also just because you’re able to sell a product manufactured by some large company, it doesn’t make that company “partners” with Amway.
I’m just laying it out as it is. As I said earlier, I have since built a small business of my own that provides a low six-figure income. I’ve worked hard and have a net worth currently in excess of a million dollars. But I’m not rich, I live in a New York City suburb, it’s expensive and the economy has hurt my business just like it has almost everyone. But I planned for the “rainy days” beginning 20 years ago.
I’m going to amend one part of my previous comment. I said it’s possible to make money in the Amway business. I’ll amend that to say the it was once possible to make money in the Amway business. I you are deeply involved in the “tools” and the seminars, etc., it’s just not going to happen.
AMEN! (Sorry if that sounds “religious,” but Amway has clamped down on the religious and politics talk, although I doubt it is being enforced.)
Was involved in Amway in the 80s and at the time my father told me that he considered it a “pyramid scheme” and to this day I believe that is still true. The only way you make lots of money with Amway is by getting more people to join under you and take a percentage of their sales. Pretty sure that’s how it still goes. So if you look at the top of the pyramid (the 1%) they are making all th